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 Arp
roving mycophagist
Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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 Re: Chavez to rule by decree  [Re: Seuss]
#6484702 - 01/22/07 07:35 AM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can you backup these claims?
I spent a year in South America and came back this July. I seen alot of it man.
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Arp
roving mycophagist
Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Seuss]
#6484826 - 01/22/07 09:09 AM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chavez's interest is in power, not helping the poor.
This will become very obvious in the next few years as he stretches his "unlimited" power.
The necessity of "unlimited power" wouldnt be there if it wasnt for foreign and private interference.
Quote:
People elected Hitler as well... and we all know that Hitler was a loving, caring sort of guy... Without oil money, Chavez would not be in power...
"people elected hitler". "outdated ideology". I don't buy that conditioned rhetoric. If the oil money been for the population and not for a selected few I don't think we would have seen Chavez in power.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Seuss]
#6484844 - 01/22/07 09:22 AM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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Duh... who voted for him. How do you keep poor uneducated people in a third world country voting for you? By buying their votes and calling it "helping the poor".
So they're too stupid to vote for the best guy? Presumably the best guy in your viewpoint being the guy who sells the oil and water supplies off to the highest corporate bidder?
People elected Hitler as well
True, it's not always an indication of a good guy but it sometimes is. And I think this time it is.
Without oil money, Chavez would not be
If Chavez was only interested in power he wouldn't take on the entire media system along with the most powerful country on earth and vastly wealthy corporate interests. He would have bent over for the corporations, taken his backhanders and said "Fuck the poor" like his predecessors.
Chavez has taken the hardest route possible - you don't do that if all you are interested in is power.
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 Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 4 months, 3 days
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Arp]
#6484897 - 01/22/07 10:02 AM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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> Can you backup these claims? I spent a year in South America and came back this July. I seen alot of it man.
I've been living here for five years now... I can almost see Venezuela from my house.
> True, it's not always an indication of a good guy but it sometimes is. And I think this time it is.
*grin* So why use it as a metric if it doesn't always work? "I only use it as a metric when I agree with it..." *chuckle*
> If Chavez was only interested in power he wouldn't take on the entire media system along with the most powerful country on earth
The best way to take/maintain power is to blame all of the problems on somebody else... such as the "Devil" up north...
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Arp
roving mycophagist
Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Seuss]
#6484945 - 01/22/07 10:19 AM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> Can you backup these claims? I spent a year in South America and came back this July. I seen alot of it man.
I've been living here for five years now... I can almost see Venezuela from my house.
Where the hell are ya? Colombia? Brazil?
I know the corruption is pretty bad in many of these countries, got to experience it firsthand. But do you belive that corruption in this continent is inevitable or are you just sceptical to Chavéz in general?
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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Alex213]
#6486413 - 01/22/07 06:10 PM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said:
So they're too stupid to vote for the best guy? Presumably the best guy in your viewpoint being the guy who sells the oil and water supplies off to the highest corporate bidder?
Ummm, smart guy, if he nationalizes the oil facilities what do you think HE will be?
Quote:
True, it's not always an indication of a good guy but it sometimes is. And I think this time it is.
Not even the least bit concerned about him emasculating the legislature, huh?Quote:
If Chavez was only interested in power he wouldn't take on the entire media system
He has shut down opposition media in his country and the media in this country has pretty much given him a pass. What the fuck are you talking about? Or was shutting down what you meant by "taking on"?Quote:
along with the most powerful country on earth
Yet another brave soldier in a rather crowded field of ankle bitersQuote:
and vastly wealthy corporate interests.
Which he seems to have decided he can cut off anytime he wants to. And there is in fact absolutely nothing they can do about it except never invest there again. Or anybody else invest there. Or do any business with him at all. Oh well, evil corporations,"No refrigerator for you!" As ye reap, so shall ye sow.Quote:
He would have bent over for the corporations, taken his backhanders and said "Fuck the poor" like his predecessors.
Yep, Cuba is chock full of a bunch of very rich poor people, sure has worked there.
Chavez has taken the hardest route possible - you don't do that if all you are interested in is power.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Arp]
#6488618 - 01/23/07 06:03 AM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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> Where the hell are ya? Colombia? Brazil?
Nope, west of there. There is a bit of water between me and Venezuela, but no land, hence the "almost". However, I have had a lot of contact with people from there and have heard the good and the bad. I dated a Venezuelan school teacher a few years ago; about as close as one can get to a country without living there.
I also live in a fairly corrupt area. We had some massive looting around ten years ago after a natural disaster. There was a front page picture of the Governor looting a television out the broken front window of a department store. The police were directing people towards the stores that still had products left to loot.
My big gripe with Chavez isn't actually with Chavez as much as all the people sitting in their comfy little homes with their comfy little jobs in their secure little country pretending that they understand what corruption really is and what Chavez is really like.
Until you have lived someplace that has a 911 operator that hangs up on you because you are rude when you called during an emergency... or a police officer that won't help you during a robbery unless you agree to pay the cop on the side... then you have not lived in a corrupt society and cannot imagine what it is like to be on the wrong side of those in control of a corrupt country.
So, for all those people that think Chavez is the greatest thing since sliced bread... go live in Venezuela for a few years... and if you are still alive (extremely unlikely), let me know what you think of his rule. My guess is that your tune will have changed quite a lot.
It is unfortunate that world opinion will overlook common decency as long as the vulgar are shouting anti-American propaganda.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Aldous
enthusiast
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Economist]
#6489303 - 01/23/07 02:07 PM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
Does this mean you think that all of Ronald Reagan's policies were also justified and fair?
No. If he was elected, and especially with that kind of margin, he was fully entitled to apply all policies he saw fit... without any foreign interference.
Criticize as much as you like, no trouble with that. But how can one justify a coup orchestrated by the (former) power elite and US interference therein?
So it seems your comparison doesn't stand. Reagan didn't have to fear the least bit of Venezuelan subversion sabotaging his policies.
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Aldous
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Seuss]
#6489317 - 01/23/07 02:12 PM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
People elected Hitler as well...
Again, wrong comparison. How many times was Hitler re-elected? Ah right, he didn't give them a chance to vote him out. 
Quote:
Without oil money, Chavez would not be in power...
Strange I never read that kind of remarks about dictatorial Saudi Arabian princes who won't allow women to breathe for themselves and have routine beheadings on the marketplace. How many threads about them? Ah right, they're allies who fully cater to the US's needs instead of challenging their imperialism.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 4 months, 3 days
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Aldous]
#6489428 - 01/23/07 03:14 PM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Again, wrong comparison. How many times was Hitler re-elected?
Fine, how many times was Saddam reelected with 100% of the vote? Do you really think all of the people that voted for him really felt that they had any alternative? I am not saying that Chavez was not fairly elected. My point is that people sometimes elect bad people into office... and sometimes they keep them there... (Bush *cough* Clinton *cough*) Just because somebody was elected, or re-elected does not magically make that person a good person as Alex was suggesting.
Quote:
Strange I never read that kind of remarks about dictatorial Saudi Arabian princes who won't allow women to breathe for themselves and have routine be headings on the marketplace.
That is because I don't live next door to Saudi Arabia the way I do live next door to Venezuela. Living in the Latin America region, I feel that I have a bit more realistic idea of what life is like in Latin America. Since I do not live in the Middle East, I have little understanding of the region beyond what I see on CNN (so to speak). Were I to speak about events in the Middle East as if I truly understood what life was like there, then I would be no better than those that I chastise for doing the same with Latin America.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Aldous
enthusiast
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Seuss]
#6489842 - 01/23/07 05:38 PM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Fine, how many times was Saddam reelected with 100% of the vote?
As far as I know, never. I don't think he even tried to simulate democratic legitimacy. I guess that was not the point, but I just thought I'd mention it. I guess we agree on the main point you were trying to convey.
On a general note, if it's democracy the US wish to spread around the world, they better take an example from Venezuela. Ordinary people are walking the streets with the constitution in their pockets and discussing politics. They are becoming politically aware, and in the process they vote... for Chavez, yes. He's the man who made the situation what it is. How undemocratic is that?
And I will be the first to admit that governing by decree is most probably a mistake, but I still disagree with most other criticisms on Chavez.
Edited by Aldous (01/23/07 05:55 PM)
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Economist
in training
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Re: Chavez to rule by decree [Re: Aldous]
#6490312 - 01/23/07 08:50 PM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aldous said:
So it seems your comparison doesn't stand. Reagan didn't have to fear the least bit of Venezuelan subversion sabotaging his policies.
On the contrary, the comparison is all the stronger because Reagan had to constantly watch out for Soviet influence. Or are we going to pretend that the Soviet Union didn't fund anti-Americanism?
So, the question remains, Chavez and Reagan were both elected by 20% margins. Both had to deal with well-funded adversaries (the US and the USSR). So, does Alex then believe that all of Reagan's policies were as justified by elections as he makes Chavez's out to be?
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