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 Noveltyhead
Psychonaut
Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Austin, Tx
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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 The gratuitous grace and meditational practice 
#6490275 - 01/23/07 08:34 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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On a similar note to some of the recent items of discussion, what is the relationship between your meditative practice (if you maintain one), and your use of the psychedelic sacrament. There is great differing opinion on whether these are both paths to the same place, the same realization. And also on whether our sacred medicines can catalyze meditation or hinder it. I apologize if this post repeats some issues already discussed, I checked and didn't see any previous material, but if my post is more or less a repeat feel free to let me know and I will delete it.
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"Its a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"--Lewis Carroll
Pippin: I didn't think it would end this way.
Gandalf: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path . . . one that we must all take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass...
Gandalf: ...And then you see it.
Pippin: What, Gandalf? See what?
Gandalf: White shores . . . and beyond. A far green country, under a swift sunrise.
Pippin: Well, that isn't so bad.
Gandalf: [Softly:] No... No it isn't.
"The universe is an intelligence test"--Timothy leary
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
  
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,348
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Noveltyhead]
#6490568 - 01/23/07 09:58 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think it's a matter that has different results on different people and that's why so many contradictions.
For me they both work in different manners. It's like getting to the same place only the roads are so different that I personally think it's best to do them both since I get so much more out of it. Also meditating while on psychedelics it one of the most amazing thigs that I've experienced.
But what's your view on that issue?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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 redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,933
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6491704 - 01/24/07 07:07 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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with meditation I smooth the asphault pavement of my attitudes
with entheogen I am the ashpault and the attitude:
either separated or conjoined I like the
holy rolling ways
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~~~~~
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Noveltyhead
Psychonaut
Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Austin, Tx
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: redgreenvines]
#6491779 - 01/24/07 08:48 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I personally don't have much experience with meditation. I really just started my practice last year. But intuitively they both seem to be different styles of the same end, as it were, two schools differing on technique but not really on content. Though I can see where if someone were to get off on a totally hedonistic drug habit it could be detrimental to their spiritual development. If anything I think psychedelics are magnifiers and there is no ill virtue in using glasses to read!
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"Its a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"--Lewis Carroll
Pippin: I didn't think it would end this way.
Gandalf: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path . . . one that we must all take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass...
Gandalf: ...And then you see it.
Pippin: What, Gandalf? See what?
Gandalf: White shores . . . and beyond. A far green country, under a swift sunrise.
Pippin: Well, that isn't so bad.
Gandalf: [Softly:] No... No it isn't.
"The universe is an intelligence test"--Timothy leary
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,933
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Noveltyhead]
#6491946 - 01/24/07 10:48 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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the medicines are more like time distenders than magnifiers.
the resulting overlap of moments in a time distension seems magnifical.
working with one's attention and not using medicine provides habit shaping.
I would say that well shaped habits contribute nicely to the appreciation of magnifical effects when they happen, but I would not say that meditation (the habit shaper) is the same as medicine (the time dilater) or vice versa.
i do see some positive ways of working with them in a personal regime of culture and shaping as well as judicious indulgence in the magnifical effects.
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~~~~~
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
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Posts: 7,658
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Noveltyhead]
#6492076 - 01/24/07 12:02 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noveltyhead said:
I personally don't have much experience with meditation. I really just started my practice last year. But intuitively they both seem to be different styles of the same end, as it were, two schools differing on technique but not really on content. Though I can see where if someone were to get off on a totally hedonistic drug habit it could be detrimental to their spiritual development. If anything I think psychedelics are magnifiers and there is no ill virtue in using glasses to read!
First you have to define meditation.
If you believe that meditation is militarily disciplining your mind to one-pointedness, you will be severely disappointed.
If you believe you have to suffer through back-ache and the inability to get into a full lotus position for a few decades, you will be severely disappointed.
"The real secret of magic is that the world is made of words, and that if you know the words that the world is made of you can make of it whatever you wish."--Terence Mckenna
McKenna was onto something, but the mistake he made was in thinking that Reality is a verbal unfoldment, as opposed to his Reality being a verbal unfoldment.
You already know the alchemical words; what you have to do is metaphor 'em good.
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leery11
Stranger
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Lion]
#6492202 - 01/24/07 12:50 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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bug is this idea something that cannot be transmitted in words, or is there a little more you could say about it? is it like learning to have a conversation with the other half of your brain, and using the words it gives you?
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Om bhur bhuvaha swaha tat savitur varenyam bhargo devasya dhimahi, dhiyo yonah prachodyat.
We meditate upon that supreme light , the source of all creation, may it illumine our intellects and bring us eternal life.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,933
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: leery11]
#6493241 - 01/24/07 06:18 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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mckenna was a crack pot
we need to find our own foundations
we can appreciate what terrance did
but it is all very insubstantial.
in terms of meditation,
go to the source
and avoid convenient socially acceptable echoes especially famous hippies like terrence mckenna.
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~~~~~
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: redgreenvines]
#6493253 - 01/24/07 06:21 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
mckenna was a crack pot
we need to find our own foundations
we can appreciate what terrance did
but it is all very insubstantial.
in terms of meditation,
go to the source
and avoid convenient socially acceptable echoes especially famous hippies like terrence mckenna.
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Noveltyhead
Psychonaut
Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Austin, Tx
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Sinbad]
#6493346 - 01/24/07 06:49 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Crack pot or not he had some interesting things to say. I'm not defending him as a prophet or a saint but certainly you can't deny his magical oration.
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"Its a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"--Lewis Carroll
Pippin: I didn't think it would end this way.
Gandalf: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path . . . one that we must all take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass...
Gandalf: ...And then you see it.
Pippin: What, Gandalf? See what?
Gandalf: White shores . . . and beyond. A far green country, under a swift sunrise.
Pippin: Well, that isn't so bad.
Gandalf: [Softly:] No... No it isn't.
"The universe is an intelligence test"--Timothy leary
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,348
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 9 days, 7 hours
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Noveltyhead]
#6493474 - 01/24/07 07:44 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think nobody's denying his qualities, and I also think he was right about many things, but the idea was to find our own way, our own "philosophy" and so on.
And yeah, we could use more people that promote the use of psychedelics the way he did...
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Noveltyhead
Psychonaut
Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Austin, Tx
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6493989 - 01/24/07 10:29 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I understand what your saying. Very good point!
--------------------
"Its a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"--Lewis Carroll
Pippin: I didn't think it would end this way.
Gandalf: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path . . . one that we must all take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass...
Gandalf: ...And then you see it.
Pippin: What, Gandalf? See what?
Gandalf: White shores . . . and beyond. A far green country, under a swift sunrise.
Pippin: Well, that isn't so bad.
Gandalf: [Softly:] No... No it isn't.
"The universe is an intelligence test"--Timothy leary
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,933
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Noveltyhead]
#6495111 - 01/25/07 08:37 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Novelty head, is the avatar you are using your own face?
I met a writer in france who looks like this.
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~~~~~
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Noveltyhead
Psychonaut
Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Austin, Tx
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: redgreenvines]
#6499886 - 01/26/07 06:35 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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(: no. Just a mckenna head.
--------------------
"Its a poor sort of memory that only works backwards"--Lewis Carroll
Pippin: I didn't think it would end this way.
Gandalf: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path . . . one that we must all take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass...
Gandalf: ...And then you see it.
Pippin: What, Gandalf? See what?
Gandalf: White shores . . . and beyond. A far green country, under a swift sunrise.
Pippin: Well, that isn't so bad.
Gandalf: [Softly:] No... No it isn't.
"The universe is an intelligence test"--Timothy leary
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Cymbaline
Stranger
Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 177
Loc: Oz
Last seen: 2 months, 11 days
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 Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6504210 - 01/28/07 07:16 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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My view on meditating while tripping?
I have had a serious meditation practice happening for some years now. I no longer use any drugs apart from mushrooms, and these only a handful of times a year. I usually trip, alone, in the bush. Some of the time is spent wandering about, just tripping out. Other time is spent just sitting and being at one with the world - intently observing all that is going on within and without me. This fills me with a sense of peace and belonging that I cannot describe - it is far more intense than the sense of calm that meditation alone instills in me. I can draw on this feeling for some time after the experience has passed.
I do not feel that this detracts from my normal meditation practice at all, in fact it appears to complement it nicely  Whereas, in my experience, dope smoking and alcohol, etc, made meditation a waste of time...
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,933
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Cymbaline]
#6504237 - 01/28/07 07:42 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cymbaline said:
My view on meditating while tripping?
... - intently observing all that is going on within and without me. This fills me with a sense of peace and belonging that I cannot describe - it is far more intense than the sense of calm that meditation alone instills in me. I can draw on this feeling for some time after the experience has passed....
would you say this is like a compounding of the simpler sense of calm that you experience in meditation, or even just by being in the forest alone.
(I respond to what I see as evidence to my observation/theory that the primary psychedelic effect is a compounding or layering of mind moments or the content therefrom - and secondary effects are the associative effects of memory with compounded content in conscious ness)
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 7,658
Loc:
Last seen: 11 days, 16 hours
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: redgreenvines]
#6504360 - 01/28/07 09:56 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
mckenna was a crack pot
we need to find our own foundations
we can appreciate what terrance did
but it is all very insubstantial.
in terms of meditation,
go to the source
and avoid convenient socially acceptable echoes especially famous hippies like terrence mckenna.
I agree. McKenna was not conveying a system of knowledge but a metaphor for his own unfolding self-Gnosis. He was metaphoring for his own pleasure and financial comfort, not lecturing on psychedelic drugs. As such, his words can only go so far in metaphoring the self.
The "Linguistic Object" for me is not a magical creation of the DMT Elves in hyperspace: it is literally the 'object' in the 'subject-object' syntax of linguistic speech, which is a metaphor for duality and irreconcilable with a unified Self. De-objectification is the goal of all meditation, in my opinion.
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Edited by Lion (01/28/07 12:39 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,933
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: Lion]
#6504409 - 01/28/07 10:42 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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well expressed!
(object conjured inside and pressed out)
but what of expressing?
can unity be in suchness... acting through (tathagatto - 'thus gone')
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~~~~~
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MarkostheGnostic
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Loc: South Florida
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: redgreenvines]
#6504445 - 01/28/07 11:13 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I read and own several of Terrance McKenna's books, and I too came to the conclusion that he was a crackpot. However, while referencing something on his death - by brain tumor - as a possible variable to his 'crackpottedness,' I stumbled across this site and was just smitten by it. Terrance and I could have become great friends over the topic of alchemy. I was a child experimenter from the 5th grade who behaved more like an alchemist than a chemist over a boiling retort. I remember a quick experiment before being called for supper - heating 5% Sulphuric acid with a bit of Potassium Bromide that my Dad had obtained from his friend's photography store. I watched with almost disbelief as crimsom vapors of Bromine began to evolve and then condense in the receiving flask - crimson liquid with crimson vapors swirling on the surface. It wasn't the chemistry of it, it was the visual-olfactory experience that gave rise to the emotion of 'awe!' It was 'awe' that I realize was what I pursued with psychedelics. It was 'astonishment' that 200 Heavenly Blue Morning Glory seeds from the local store could elicit visions of 'silvery rotating doilies in the sky' and paisley patterns on the ground.
This thread has instilled a love for McKenna over the usual dismissal of the man because of his bizarre theorizing on metaphysical insect-sounding bases for Ultimate Reality and Time-Line Zero. He had a very psychedelic grasp of Hermetic philosophy, Alchemy, Gnosis and other topics which are dear to my heart. R.I.P. Terry.
 http://www.well.com/~davidu/tmalchemy.html
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,933
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Re: The gratuitous grace and meditational practice [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#6504629 - 01/28/07 01:23 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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very sentimental, mark
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~~~~~
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