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InvisibleAlex213
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For any libertarian free-marketeer
    #6444047 - 01/10/07 02:00 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

After wilshires strange refusal to state his position on providing welfare for people who can't work, would any other libertarian on the board care to state their position? What's this idea of abolishing taxation and welfare and leaving it all to "private charity" for example? And what happens to people who can't work if "private charity" isn't enough to provide for them?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6444456 - 01/10/07 08:01 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

My position on it is the same as wilshire's -- government should not be permitted to seize by force some people's stuff (usually money) in order to give it to other people.

People have been kept alive by the charity of others for millennia -- long before governments involved themselves in income "redistribution programs". It seems to be axiomatic to Lefties that people would be "starving in the streets" (your words) of America in the XXIst century were it not for government-run welfare programs. This is sheer speculation on their part.

Those unfortunates who are actually incapable of supporting themselves can turn to family, friends, churches, organized charities and individual do-gooders for help.




Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Phred]
    #6444474 - 01/10/07 08:14 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

My position on it is the same as wilshire's

wilshire has refused to state his position. There's no need to try and speak for him.

People have been kept alive by the charity of others for millennia

People have died through neglect and want for millennia too.

This is sheer speculation on their part.


It follows fairly logically tho. If you have no money, you go hungry, you suffer illness you can't afford to treat etc.

Those unfortunates who are actually incapable of supporting themselves can turn to family, friends, churches, organized charities and individual do-gooders for help.


And if none of these have sufficient funds to provide for millions of unemployed people? What happens then?

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6444497 - 01/10/07 08:20 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Alex, I'd like to give my answer, but first I want you to answer two questions for me:

1) Would you, personally, like to see those who cannot work taken care of (fed, sheltered, etc.)?

2) Do you honestly believe that a majority of people feel the same way you do?

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Economist]
    #6444533 - 01/10/07 08:38 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Alex, I'd like to give my answer, but first I want you to answer two questions for me:

1) Would you, personally, like to see those who cannot work taken care of (fed, sheltered, etc.)?

2) Do you honestly believe that a majority of people feel the same way you do?




1) Yes.

2) Yes.

If the majority of ordinary people didn't support it then there's no way it would have happened. Big buisness loathes everything about the idea of welfare and if they thought they could get away with people living in tin shacks on half a tin of rice a day, dying at the age of 40, they would be overjoyed. They could get back to the good old days of slave labour.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6444654 - 01/10/07 09:43 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The you have my answer.

If you believe that those unable to work should be taken care of, and the majority of people feel the same way you do, then a system of private charity should be more than enough to take care of them because:

a) If you truly feel that people unable to work should be taken care of, then you must be willing to finance their living

and

b) If a majority of people echo your feelings, then a majority of others must be willing to finance the living of those who cannot work.

Then end result is that private charity will inherently be "enough" if the majority of the population is willing to contribute to it. If it's ever reported that it is "not enough" then that same majority must simply be willing to give more, which shouldn't be a problem if their true feelings are that those who cannot work need to be taken care of.

The only reason you would lead to legislate "mandatory" giving to charity (which is the same thing as welfare) is if the majority is not actually willing to finance those who cannot work and need to rob the minority to make up the difference.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6444696 - 01/10/07 10:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Why should I be forced to contribute to the livelihood of people I have never met when I could be spending that money and more to help those in need that I am acquainted with?

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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Redstorm]
    #6444816 - 01/10/07 10:57 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

No kidding, we send so much foreign aid all over the planet, when people in our own countries are starving, and people are dying in hospitals because they can't afford treatment.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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Offlinepokermush
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6445552 - 01/10/07 02:39 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'm all for a safety net. I don't have a problem with society supporting those who truly can't work, or temporarily lending a hand to those who fall on hard times. Whether through government or charity, its fine.

Three points though:
1) Private charity, while efficient, I don't think is fully effective in providing the help that is needed.

2) Society as a whole does have an interest in maintaining stability, and helping people get back on their feet and productive again. Ignoring the moral aspects, government needs to take some minimal steps to prevent disease, crime, and other problems that arise when the bottom rung hangs too low.

3) I think 1&2 can be handled with negligable public funding. It is the fraud, abuse, dependency, and the breeding bonuses that makes the whole thing spiral out of control.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Redstorm]
    #6445690 - 01/10/07 03:30 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

What gives your acquaintances special rights? Should monetary assistance only be available to those who have befriended the wealthy?

Personally, I would like to see a Negative Income Tax.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6445858 - 01/10/07 04:35 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

After wilshires strange refusal to state his position on providing welfare for people who can't work

:lol:

this again?

when did i refuse to state my position on providing welfare for people who can't work? you didn't even ask me about it!

you'd think once was enough...

edit - whoops... i spoke too soon. looks like you asked me about it after all.

- wilshire, 0243 EST


--------------------


Edited by wilshire (01/11/07 12:43 AM)

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: wilshire]
    #6446107 - 01/10/07 05:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

when did i refuse to state my position on providing welfare for people who can't work? you didn't even ask me about it!




thread

he asked in the original post and you never responded.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6446717 - 01/10/07 08:21 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Personally, I would like to see a Negative Income Tax.



I would consider that the second best option as far as tax reform goes.


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Silversoul]
    #6446801 - 01/10/07 08:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Why the hell should I have to give money to someone that doesn't contribute shit to society? If you want to so much, you should donate money to a private charity, and help them yourself, I on the other hand could give 2 shits less. If the people in this country care so much, private organizations will do the job fine. I don't ever see this happening, and it really wouldn't improve life very much for either side. I still don't think I owe anyone shit, especially the fact that a lot of those people probably could work.

On a side note, I don't really see how any libertarian can agree with everything the LP stands for. It really would never work, though I do agree with a lot of it.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Vvellum]
    #6447384 - 01/11/07 12:16 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

he asked in the original post and you never responded.

that's because it was irrelevant to the claim he made. he claimed that i said i was comfortable with people starving in the streets and had said so on this board. he did not claim to remember me saying that i was comfortable with abolishing government welfare programs. if he had claimed the latter, he would have been correct. as it was, he was putting words into my mouth.

point taken however. i did ignore his question. should have re-read exactly what was asked before making my previous post.  :blush:


--------------------


Edited by wilshire (01/11/07 12:33 AM)

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6447416 - 01/11/07 12:37 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

-- government should not be permitted to seize by force some people's stuff (usually money) in order to give it to other people.





How is this defined due to Corporate welfare? Are the poor of this country less inclined to welfare then large corporations or businesses?


My solution to this problem, is when we pay our taxes we should be able to have 2 things. A receipt of where your tax money goes, and a form for you to designate where your tax money goes, whether it be to the military, education, or welfare. There should also be a surplus and a ceiling for programs so money can be shifted equally due to monetary containment.

This also discourages pork-barrel spending.

If i knew exactly where my tax-money was going... say if it were going to a program to make a Museum on Hammers i maybe less inclined to vote for my local congressmen.
Anyone else think this is a good idea.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6447418 - 01/11/07 12:38 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

since we've got that case of mistaken memory cleared up and we've got a new thread going...

Could you explain exactly how you would ensure the unemployed hungry/disabled were fed in your dream society?

i can't. it would be impossible for me, in any scenario, to provide for every person in need.

Presumably you would have abolished taxation and welfare?

yes, i thought that had always been clear. why the confusion?


--------------------


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Economist]
    #6447604 - 01/11/07 02:39 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
The you have my answer.

If you believe that those unable to work should be taken care of, and the majority of people feel the same way you do, then a system of private charity should be more than enough to take care of them




Well, the majority of people feel they should be taken care of which is why there's a safety net. The best way of providing a safety net is through a regulated welfare system. Private charity simply isn't reliable enough to provide a safety net.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Alex213]
    #6447727 - 01/11/07 05:31 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

The best way of providing a safety net is through a regulated welfare system. Private charity simply isn't reliable enough to provide a safety net.




Says who?

If the majority of people wish to help those in dire need, they will help those in need. There is no need to force them to do so -- though they may need the occasional reminder that funds for the local orphanage are running low, the same way that every now and then the local Red Cross blood bank decides it's time to run a drive for blood donors.



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: For any libertarian free-marketeer [Re: Phred]
    #6447888 - 01/11/07 07:52 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Alex213 writes:

Quote:

The best way of providing a safety net is through a regulated welfare system. Private charity simply isn't reliable enough to provide a safety net.




Says who?

If the majority of people wish to help those in dire need, they will help those in need. There is no need to force them to do so


Phred




There's no-one "forcing" them to do so. If everyone wanted to abandon the welfare state and go back to the Grapes of wrath days they would simply vote libertarian.

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