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 nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
 
Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 2,415
Loc: ethereality
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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 Re: Dick Cheney shoots man  [Re: Learyfan]
#5323125 - 02/21/06 09:18 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
Quote:
kotik said:
http://www.lf8.org/taboo/ballistics_test_bb.wmv
chew on that. "scientific" experiment proving that Cheney shot the poor guy less than 20ft away.
That test seemed very reasonable to me. It seems right that Cheney MUST have been much closer than he claimed in order for the bbs to have been concentrated in such a small area on Whittington.
that test was fucking shit.
He talked about pellet spread, he demonstrated that if you were aiming at the mans chest from 90 feet away that the pellets would disperse in a fashion as to make it almost impossible that the man would be struck. He was aiming at the guys heart. He stated that the pellets from that distance would miss the target by three to four feet. Fine, that is well and dandy. If Cheney accidentally discharged his gun in the direction of the victim the likelihood of him aiming a dead on shot at the mans heart is infinitesimally small. Lets then consider he missed his target by a ratio that would allow for the three foot spread at a distance of 30 meters. Its not that hard to conceive of. This scenario seems much more likely than Cheney accidentally aiming directly at the man's heart like the asshole in the video did.
Also we need to consider the man's height vs the dummy's. Those dummies weren't even a man's full height. Also if a pellet burst forth from a shotgun and couldn't penetrate a chicken standing still further than a millimeter what good what it be against a bird at wing?
also we need to consider the grain count.
And who cares if it was an accident at twenty feet vs ninety feet. Its still an accident.
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Asshole
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: kotik]
#5323238 - 02/21/06 10:44 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Projection
A defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, in which what is emotionally unacceptable in the self is unconsciously rejected and attributed (projected) to others.
www.indianpsychiatry.com/Glossary.htm
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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"
We have "reckless fiscal policies"
America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.
Americans deserve better
Barack Obama
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 26,718
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 3 hours, 1 minute
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What you say doesn't disprove what Alex Jones demonstrated with that test. It doesn't matter where you're aiming. When you're 90 feet away, the pellets dispurse. Isn't that all there is to it? The only way for the pellets or bbs to have been so heavily concentrated in one area is for Cheney to have been much closer to Whittington than he claims.
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Mp3 of the month: The Human Expression - Readin' Your Will
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 Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,215
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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And who cares if it was an accident at twenty feet vs ninety feet. Its still an accident.
You just don't get it.
It's not whether or not this was an accident that people have beef with; virtually everyone agrees that it was.
Get it straight: the issue is that we may have been (maybe are being) lied to about the circumstances surrounding the accident (distances, alcohol impairment, who knows what else).
I can see someone accidentally shooting someone 90 feet away, but at 20 feet, and wearing a bright orange safety vest, they're prominent even at 90 degrees in your peripheral vision. Either Cheney is half-blind, or something else (alcohol?) contributed to the accident.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,287
Last seen: 1 second
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: Diploid]
#5324532 - 02/21/06 05:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've never shot anything with a 28 gauge shotgun. I've fired a 20 and a .410. At 15 to 20 feet a 20 probably would have blown his jaw right off. A .410 would have done serious damage as well. Shotgun pellets are seriously unaerodynamic and slow down very quickly. For a discussion and education on shot shell patterning go here:
http://www.proteinwisdom.com/index.php/weblog/entry/19882/#comments
You'll have to scroll down to get to the Dan Riehl part but it is sane and replete with links to serious gun information. To cut to the chase, shotshells are tested for patterning at 40 yds (don't forget, the report was 30 yds. 75% of the distance would result in a 1.33 squared denser pattern or nearly double the density) with a 30inch diameter circle. The gun is fired at a large paper target 40 yds away and a 30 inch circle is drawn around the densest part of the pattern. The number of pellets are counted. Depending on the choke of the gun you can expect from 40% to 70% of the pellets to be in the circle. There are 262 #7.5 pellets in one 28 ga shell. 70% of that is 183. The report was of approximately 200 pellets. Not at all inconsistent with the report. Even a half choke at 60%in 40 yds would yield more than enough pellets in 30 yds to be consistent.
Clutching at straws, people, clutching at straws. Putting out such weak shit only dimiinishes the credibility of those who spew it.
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: Learyfan]
#5324677 - 02/21/06 06:32 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said:
What you say doesn't disprove what Alex Jones demonstrated with that test. It doesn't matter where you're aiming. When you're 90 feet away, the pellets dispurse. Isn't that all there is to it? The only way for the pellets or bbs to have been so heavily concentrated in one area is for Cheney to have been much closer to Whittington than he claims.
I"m just going to take a stab in the dark here....
1) You'v never hunted
2) You've never fired a shotgun
3) You've got no experience studying ballistics.
am I correct?
Oh, I did part-time research work with the IWBA (International Wound Ballistics Association), just in case you wanted to switch the questions back on me. Maybe you could also tell me why professionals use ballistic/ordanince gel and Alex Jones uses a freakin 25$ kickboxing dummy. maybe the entire firearms world should reconsider how we test firearms, per Alex Jones?
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"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic
Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: Diploid]
#5324686 - 02/21/06 06:34 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
I can see someone accidentally shooting someone 90 feet away, but at 20 feet, and wearing a bright orange safety vest, they're prominent even at 90 degrees in your peripheral vision. Either Cheney is half-blind, or something else (alcohol?) contributed to the accident.
Twenty feet in heavy underbrush isn't THAT hard to do, really. Especially if you are tracking a bird,as Cheney was, and the other guy walks out of somewhere he shouldn't have been. One of my hunting buddies shot a human at 43 feet with a scoped rifle accidentally and he was as sober as a nun.
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"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,287
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: MisterMyco]
#5324917 - 02/21/06 07:31 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nice move with the delete button diploid.
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic
Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: zappaisgod]
#5324930 - 02/21/06 07:34 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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What'd he delete
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"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,215
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: zappaisgod]
#5324987 - 02/21/06 07:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Clutching at straws, people, clutching at straws.
Nope. Here's how I figure it:
Part 1
The surface area of a circle is Pi*R^2
Plugging in the numbers we get:
3.1415 * 30" ^ 2 = 2827 square inches on a 30" circle
Part 2
The Mosteller Formula is the most common way physicians compute body surface area to determine the proper therapeutic course. In English units, it goes like this:
Total Body Surface Area (meters) =
[ ( Height in inches * Weight in pounds ) / 3125 ] ^ 1/2
Assuming Whittingon is 6 feet tall and weighs 170 pounds, then plugging in the numbers for him, we get:
[ ( 72 * 170 ) / 3125 ] ^ 1/2 = 1.98 square meters or 6076 square inches of skin on his body.
Only half of this was visible from Cheney's point of view at the moment the gun was fired because the other half was on the far side of Whittingon's body. That means only 3038 square inches of Whittingon's skin was vulnerable to being hit.
Since all the pellets hit the upper half of Whittingon's body, let's say that half of 3038, or 1519, square inches of skin got hit by 200 pellets.
The more observant will note that 1519 is conservative as it assumes the skin is splayed out flat like the 30 inch circle it's being compared to. In reality, the skin is wrapped around the body, but to be more accurate requires a double integral equation that would lose my audience.
1519 is 54 percent of 2827, so it follows that even if ALL 262 pellets in the shell were within a 30" circle at 30 yards, AND if the shot had been aimed directly at Whittingon, then only 54% of the 262 pellets should have hit him.
54 percent of 262 is 141 pellets. How did the other 59 manage to hit Whittingon??
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
Edited by Diploid (02/21/06 08:03 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,215
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: zappaisgod]
#5325007 - 02/21/06 07:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nice move with the delete button diploid.
Correcting my figures. I'm stoned, give me a break.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,287
Last seen: 1 second
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: Diploid]
#5325130 - 02/21/06 08:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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30 inches is the diameter, not the radius. Thus the area of the circle is 706 sq in. (In fairness to your stonage I think the guy in the link originally said radius but later corrected it). Further, that's at 40 yds not the estimated 30. Decreasing the distance to 30 yds would result in an expected cone of area diminished by a factor of 1.33 squared or 1.77. 706 divided by 1.77 is 398 sq in. This is a square of about 20 inches a side. On me that's about the width of my shoulders by the top of my head to the center of my torso. Totally consistent with a guess of 30 yds and a guess of 200 pellets and what we know of the distribution on his body. Even though you got the area of the test circle wrong by a factor of 4 you still came up with 3/4ths the number of pellets. Fucking give it up. There's nothing there.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,287
Last seen: 1 second
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325132 - 02/21/06 08:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said:
What'd he delete
Some really weak math
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,215
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: zappaisgod]
#5325148 - 02/21/06 08:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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(In fairness to your stonage I think the guy in the link originally said radius but later corrected it).
He did, and that was my starting point.
Nevermind.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: Diploid]
#5325177 - 02/21/06 08:25 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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math isnt going to prove anything in this case, some people believe one thing, others, well.. another
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music: myspace.com/soundscientists
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I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar on my shelf.
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,287
Last seen: 1 second
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Re: Dick Cheney shoots man [Re: Diploid]
#5325178 - 02/21/06 08:25 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
Good on yer mate
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