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 knarkkorven
Entheoholic
 
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 Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? 
#5316637 - 02/19/06 01:26 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have read almost all in "The Lemon Experience... [now a community experiment - please contribute" but the thread is so big that it is hard to get some sort of result on however it it THE way to eat the mushrooms or not.
I want to make it easier for everyone to know if it really is something more than placebo involved. That is why I just have to make this poll. I know there is a forum for polls, but I?m not sure that everyone who has tried the lemon method read in that forum. I hope this is OK with everyone? 
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DeathCompany
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: knarkkorven]
#5316653 - 02/19/06 01:32 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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ive done crushing adn downing cranberry juice not soaking a few times before that thread was created and now i know why id trip so hard havent done it since
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Wiccan_Seeker
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: knarkkorven]
#5316942 - 02/19/06 03:02 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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It works if you do it right, and 2-3x potentiation is typical.
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 giz
daydreamer
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#5317015 - 02/19/06 03:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wiccan Seeker, you seem like a smart guy, how will you explain a 2-3x increase in potency?
does putting the shrooms in citric acid produces salts? this is done anyways in the stomach (which does a much better job to form salts with amines than citric acid) BTW extracting psilocin in lemon can give a faster onset, more intense peak, these claims are not absurd but there is no explonation for a 3x increase in potency.
does citric acid catalyst or converts psilocin to any other drug? i don't think so
does citric acid have effect on receptor binding of serotonogic drugs? i don't think so
so what is in lemon juice that inhibits breakdown of psilocybin= the main metabolic enzyme is monoamine oxidase, but if lemon was an maoi this would have been a well known fact. psilocin is not metabolized by cytochrome P450 enzymes so ...
what do we have left?
alot of enthusiasm and placebo? possible? i think so
a 3x in potency will say that if i used this methodo on 5 grams of mushrooms it would equal eating 15 grams. there is absolute no logic behind the claims. even worse is that there is a sticky claiming 10X potency with use of black currant (which is not even an maoi as claimed in the thread)
Edited by giz (02/19/06 04:05 PM)
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oblivia
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: giz]
#5317116 - 02/19/06 04:10 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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i have read the whole lemon juice thread, and here's what i think about it.
so far we have not figured out why it is a more intense experience, we just know that it is. we also know that the trip lasts shorter. no active substances are wasted, so basically you get more active ingredients in your brains per time unit. this makes sense because the active ingridient is already dissolved, this will greatly accelerate the rate at which it can be taken up by your guts. as far as increasing potency, it is not possible because no active ingredients are formed. its more likely that we mix up intensity and potency. these things dont have to be linear. because the trip lasts shorter, you get maybe 1,5X the normal dose per time unit. this can possibly SEEM like a 2-3x increased intensity of the experience.
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giz
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: oblivia]
#5317126 - 02/19/06 04:17 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah, sorry i misread completly yesterday.
edited away since this post was made with little relevance and thoughts and under the influece of druggies, actually i just saw the error in what i just wrote
Edited by giz (02/20/06 05:39 PM)
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ShroomyTunes
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: giz]
#5317185 - 02/19/06 04:42 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Giz, you misunderstood. Oblivia was agreeing with you that it is not an increase in potency.
Edited by ShroomyTunes (02/19/06 04:47 PM)
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ShroomyTunes
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: ShroomyTunes]
#5317202 - 02/19/06 04:46 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Giz, you misunderstood. Wiccan Seeker never said anything about potency. He said "potentiation". That derives from the word potential not potency.
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Wiccan_Seeker
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: giz]
#5317250 - 02/19/06 05:00 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I believe it's a combination of pre-digestion and increased rapidity of absorbtion.
Would it matter for the "high" if I slammed a 16oz can of beer or if I sipped it over the course of three hours?
It would matter a great deal.
Potentiation is commonly defined as an increase in effects, which it does. You can be smart and come up with a theory why it's BS or you can be *wise* and read that thread that has clear responses outnumbering "no change" 5:1
You only prove that your line of thinking is insufficient to explain the observations. Placebo effect is what happens to a minorituy of subjects. Placebo thus clearly is the "no change" group.
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giz
daydreamer
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#5319087 - 02/20/06 08:32 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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first of all I have never stated that anything is bullshit, except that black currants are MAOis (how many speed freaks would be hospitilized if black currant juice was an effective maoi), i have made a link to bluelight on that thread where its very well explained. it was stated it increased potency by 10x..
i have never disagreed on potentiation either. i have disagreed that this will make mushroom stronger (in the way that eatin 1 gram with lemon = eating 3grams). yes i can see the diffrence, and i did answer in a hurry and my english is not too well. sorry i read you correct now.
however, you say that placebo is what happens to minority of subjects??. well i might agree to that to a certain point in this partiular matter however on the other hand basing results without any control of the subjects (for all you know 4-5 posters who reported back was smoking crack intead) makes it impossible to rule out anything here. i still belive there can be some subject-expectancy effects here also.
Also note I didnt say it was placebo . only that it is possible.
.
Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
You only prove that your line of thinking is insufficient to explain the observations.
yeah , no offense but you wouldnt have the first clue how im thinking so dont try to insult my inteligence. and i havent put so much thoughts into this subjects, fair enough, but you know, what kind of a "community project" is this if you cant ask questions and reflect and not take anything on blind faith to anonymous posters.
sorry my bad english, i know it sucks ass heh
peace
Edited by giz (02/21/06 03:06 AM)
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stefan
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: oblivia]
#5320218 - 02/20/06 01:49 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
its more likely that we mix up intensity and potency. these things dont have to be linear. because the trip lasts shorter, you get maybe 1,5X the normal dose per time unit. this can possibly SEEM like a 2-3x increased intensity of the experience.
sounds like this is a very good possibility. 
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giz
daydreamer
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: stefan]
#5320228 - 02/20/06 01:52 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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yes I agree, i misunderstood what he said yesterday but I think that is a much better explanation.
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ShroomRunner
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#5321042 - 02/20/06 05:24 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Placebo's aren't necessarily affecting minority numbers. Sometimes 90% or more of a sample fall for a placebo.
However, the logic of the lemon juice makes sense. If it hits you faster, it will hit you harder. It won't last as long though.
I've done it twice myself.
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giz
daydreamer
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: ShroomRunner]
#5322934 - 02/21/06 03:08 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Placebo's aren't necessarily affecting minority numbers. Sometimes 90% or more of a sample fall for a placebo.
Exactly, I haver never of anyone ruling out placebo based on majority or minority groups
Edited by giz (02/21/06 04:43 AM)
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Wiccan_Seeker
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: giz]
#5323040 - 02/21/06 05:02 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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To say something is or isnt placebo should, in the ideal world, be determined by a double-blind study. That study hasn't come yet, so all we have are the observations of a group of people. Almost all of these people report a noticable increase.
It stretches the imagination to call it a placebo effect.
Do the study, get the facts. But up until the moment we have the facts the majority of people who tried it report a distinct potentiation.
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giz
daydreamer
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#5323111 - 02/21/06 05:57 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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yes, but what do you think about the possibility for subject-expectancy effects then which is diffrent than placebo which im sure you allready know. (especially in the gummihuasca thread) im not gonna argue about lemon, only black currants now hehe and what about using patents as evidence for maoi effects? do you think gummihuasca works? or is these effects the same you see with the lemon method only with a dash of subject expetancy effects..
Edited by giz (02/21/06 06:35 AM)
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stefan
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#5323119 - 02/21/06 06:06 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wiccan what do you think of this?
Sounds logical and isn't about placebo either...
Quote:
stefan said:
Quote:
its more likely that we mix up intensity and potency. these things dont have to be linear. because the trip lasts shorter, you get maybe 1,5X the normal dose per time unit. this can possibly SEEM like a 2-3x increased intensity of the experience.
sounds like this is a very good possibility.
I'm sure this is the case in stead of real potentiation
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click for my music First release!
smooth chillout dub Tales of the Green Dragon EP
prog psy and livesets
older music: ambient and psydub
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sandman_130
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: stefan]
#5324357 - 02/21/06 01:46 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'll tell you why it works.
It breaks down the psilocybin into psilocin faster.
When mushrooms are in your stomach, (without having them soak in lemon juice), the body has to use energy and take time for it to convert. And depending on the method of ingestion you might not always get everything that is available in the mushroom.
Psilocin is all about the amount of it you get into your body at the fastest amount of time. That makes trips stronger.
EX: eating 1/4 of pure mushroom powder in 10 minutes
is greater than
Eating an 8th and then an hour later eating another.
Its all about the psilocin and its first intial appearance which can make a trip alot stronger.
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 "There is a world beyond ours, a world that is far away, nearby, and invisible. And there is where God lives, where the dead live, the spirits and the saints, a world where everything has already happened and everything is known. That world talks. It has a language of its own. I report what it says. The sacred mushroom takes me by the hand and brings me to the world where everything is known. It is they, the sacred mushrooms, that speak in a way I can understand."
 Maria Sabina
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AlwaysFlowin
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: sandman_130]
#5324425 - 02/21/06 02:06 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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After reading through the majority of the Experiment thread, what really stood out to me was the large amounts everyone was using.
To me it seems it would be far easier to identify potency increases by taking EXTREMELY small amounts. Therefore, if you trip hard and well off of .5 grams, well then, maybe we have something. Whereas difference between 5 grams and say 8-10 can be very undefined.
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RemainRandom50
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: AlwaysFlowin]
#5324614 - 02/21/06 03:15 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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i have yet to try this, but will be attempting soon.
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At times I get consumed by my everyday life and will leave the Shroomery. Yet, every time drugs come falling into my life for fun.....I always think about the Shroomery and then I'm back!
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