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 Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,217
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul 
#5163933 - 01/10/06 08:03 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Note, for the purpose of this thread, 'soul' is defined as: the hypothetical entity which fundamentally carries a person's personality and memories and which is incorporeal and survives the death of the body intact.
[The Preface]
The human brain is composed of two hemispheres. Each is good at processing information in different ways. The left brain controls the right half of the body, and right brain controls the left.
The left brain is described using words as: logical, sequential, rational, analytical, objective, looks at parts. The right brain is described using words as: random, intuitive, holistic, synthesizing, subjective, looks at wholes.
Deep in the center of the brain is a structure called the Corpus Callosum. This is the Ethernet connection between the two sides of the brain and its job is to integrates the two hemispheres into one unit of personality, memory, and stimulus/response behavior.
Some forms of intractable epilepsy require radical surgical intervention to control. That intervention can take the form of severing the Corpus Collosum. This completely disconnects the left brain from the right and leads to bizarre disturbances in the conscious awareness of the patient.
[The Beef]
When the patient recovers from surgery, his personality is dissociated into two distinct psyches known as the Split Brain Syndrome.
If a patient whose CC has been severed holds up something like a comb or a coffee cup in his left hand, he cannot speak its name try as he might. If the object is transferred to the right hand, no trouble at all. If a card with a printed word is held up in the patient's left field of view, he cannot read it, but when it's in his right field of view, he can.
When the patient is taught the name of a new object using his right field of view, he is unable to remember it when seen in the left field of view. And the reverse also.
When the patient holds something in one hand, a well-coordinated, but totally independent and unwilled movements of the other hand attempts to grab the object. This behavior is so pronounced that patients often drop the object and both hands 'dual' for supremacy almost like children fighting.
From this, it's clear that the brain houses two separate realms of conscious awareness; two sensing, perceiving, thinking and remembering systems. Two personalities.
I see two possible reasons for the observed behavior.
1. Humans each posses two entirely independent 'souls'. This is evidenced by the observed 'hand dueling' and the formation of memories by one hemisphere that the other is unaware of.
2. The human brain is a v-e-r-y impressive pattern processing machine and the 'soul' is a euphemism invented by those who have trouble coming to terms with the truth that when we die, we cease to exist.
Simple explanations are more likely to be true (#2) than convoluted, contrived ones (#1).
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
Edited by Diploid (01/10/06 08:37 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,958
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 Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: Diploid]
#5164856 - 01/10/06 11:48 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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this is not really evidence of no soul, and the corpus callosum is less like an ethernet connection and more like the signal wiring for two pixelboards made of light bulbs, triggered by cortical energy fluctuations on the opposing side.
this wiring controls alternate bulbs on each side of the brain, integrating the energy patterns on each side of the cortex.
some might say that the soul is the aggregate pattern of these energy fluctuations - or something that feeds them or feeds upon them.
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~~~~~
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,217
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
#5165085 - 01/11/06 12:25 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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this wiring controls alternate bulbs on each side of the brain, integrating the energy patterns on each side of the cortex.
Nope.
The Corpus Callosum doesn't control anything. All it does is allow each hemisphere to communicate with the other, hence the Ethernet metaphor.
some might say that the soul is the aggregate pattern of these energy fluctuations - or something that feeds them or feeds upon them.
Then the soul does not exist independent of the physical brain. This contradicts the definition and so if your statement is true, there is no soul and the personality, being dependent on the physical brain, vanishes when the brain is destroyed.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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 mikeownow
Humungus fungus
Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 2,856
Loc: WA,USA
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: Diploid]
#5165101 - 01/11/06 12:27 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dude I know there is no soul because I have none.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: mikeownow]
#5165182 - 01/11/06 12:38 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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"More Evidence There Is No Soul"
Captian E-prime saz:
"Additional evidence which contradicts the existence of souls"
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GulGen
Old Bird
Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 307
Loc: I live in the Internet
Last seen: 6 years, 9 days
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: Diploid]
#5165218 - 01/11/06 12:44 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I see two possible reasons for the observed behavior.
1. Humans each posses two entirely independent 'souls'. This is evidenced by the observed 'hand dueling' and the formation of memories by one hemisphere that the other is unaware of.
2. The human brain is a v-e-r-y impressive pattern processing machine and the 'soul' is a euphemism invented by those who have trouble coming to terms with the truth that when we die, we cease to exist.
3. Perhaps a person's soul is imprinted in their neural connections upon birth (or any time you wish, really) and the body then exists on it's own, guided by the initial conditions set up by the soul and being passively observed and learned from by the soul, incorporeal, maybe in another plane of existence?
Sure, I'm just making stuff up, but I see no reason why that couldn't be. Or any number of other alternatives that I can't think of at the moment. Just because you can only think (or only choose to think) of two possibilities doesn't mean that that's all there are, and it doesn't mean that showing one to be unlikely or absurd automatically validates the other.
It's a bit indirect of a method for the soul 'controlling' the mind/body, I know, but I think it's fair. The soul doesn't directly control the mind/body, instead setting up the initial conditions and letting it go. Watchmaker and all that. Argue semantics if you wish.
Simple explanations are more likely to be true (#2) than convoluted, contrived ones (#1).
Simple is in the eye of the beholder. You might find it simpler to believe that the universe is a soulless machine governed entirely by atheistic natural law, while others find it simpler that there exists a single, perfect God that directly controls everything. No need for all that complex physics and whatnot - I mean, a bunch of the smartest guys on the planet have been studying that stuff for centuries and are still being surprised at all of the complex, crazy, nonsensical shit they're finding. A perfect, all-influencing being seems a lot easier.
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mikeownow
Humungus fungus
Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 2,856
Loc: WA,USA
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: GulGen]
#5165250 - 01/11/06 12:48 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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easier = lazier = why Egypt had slaves. It was much easier to believe god would somehow help and pray every night that to uprise.
yawn man I should start a religion I could convince so many people to follow me and I would not even need to believe my own wow ironic.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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mikeownow
Humungus fungus
Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 2,856
Loc: WA,USA
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: mikeownow]
#5165273 - 01/11/06 12:52 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mikeownow said:
easier = lazier = why Egypt had slaves. It was much easier to believe god would somehow help and pray every night that to uprise.
yawn man I should start a religion I could convince so many people to follow me and I would not even need to believe my own wow ironic.
Oh you stupid ass the Egypt's were freed by god blaw blaw blaw so ur wrong god set them free.
Prove it.................... I don't know maybe find the Pharaoh and his armies skeleton fossil or something since they would still be around some were and then find the ancient Egypt writing on the wall of the disaster they had that day. Then I may shit my pants see a doctor and find out I am fine and believe in god.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,958
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: Diploid]
#5166289 - 01/11/06 07:21 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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you are right - not controls, connects, but what do you think it connects? If I interpret what you are writing, it is as if you are supposing a mystical entity having a conversation or "communicating", what does communicating mean in your neurological cosmology.
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~~~~~
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 hours, 15 minutes
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: Diploid]
#5166322 - 01/11/06 07:59 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your definition of soul reads like the Astral Sheath (between the Physical and Causal Sheaths of classic Yoga), and because I had a powerful experience of Astral Projection 30+ years ago that is almost as vivid in memory today, I hold a view in opposition to yours (as do others who have had such an OOBE).
I entertain models, which seemed existent in non-ordinary states (drug-induced and not drug-induced).
BTW, some people are born without Corpus Callosums and other pathways compensate completely. I have handled human brains and separated the Central Sulcus to find variations. 'Soul' doesn't have a spacio-temporal locus in the physical body. The 'sheaths' are more like a physical model of a 'field effect' which 'contains' consciousness.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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Az0th
quantum transfiguration
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 53,483
Loc: The Void 
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: Diploid]
#5166326 - 01/11/06 08:05 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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You can deny your own soul if you want, but you can't deny mine 
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~Thought Creates Reality~
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,217
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
#5166431 - 01/11/06 09:42 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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you are right - not controls, connects, but what do you think it connects?
It connects two magnificent biochemical pattern processing machines each sufficiently complex to give rise to a rudimentary consciousness. Their combined data processing power results in a human psyche including all its wonderful creativity, emotion, and even sadistic, destructive violence.
It's biochemistry, nothing more.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,958
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: Diploid]
#5166449 - 01/11/06 09:52 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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if it is biochemsitry and nothing more, why are electrically conducting fibres connecting the bits of it instead of tubes?
and a bigger more direct question,
if it is biochemsitry and nothing more, what is the pattern, and how is that processed biochemically?
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~~~~~
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,217
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5166471 - 01/11/06 10:03 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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'Soul' doesn't have a spacio-temporal locus in the physical body.
But that contradicts the behavior exhibited by someone whose CC is severed.
If the soul can't be localized, and if the soul is where the basal personality springs forth from, then why the profound changes in personality when the CC or other structures are damaged?
For example, a famous brain injury case I'm sure you're aware of is that of Phineas Gage who, in 1848, was injured when an accidental explosion propelled a 3-foot long pointed rod through his head seriously damaging his brain. Here's a recreation:
Gage survived but with profound changes in his personality. Before the accident, Gage was a quiet, mild-mannered, shy man, but after the accident he became mean, obstinate, obscene, and self-absorbed, and this continued until his death 14 years later.
If the soul really is independent of the physical brain, then I would expect a brain injury to lead perhaps to some deficit in motor functions but not to changes in the base personality.
That the personality is so dependent on the physical brain that it completely changes when the brain is physically damaged is persuasive evidence that it exists only in the brain and 'soul' is just a warm fuzzy crutch invented by those who refuse to see the truth.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,217
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
#5166489 - 01/11/06 10:08 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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if it is biochemsitry and nothing more, what is the pattern, and how is that processed biochemically?
Nobody knows. That doesn't mean it's magic or 'soul'.
How cells replicate wasn't known for a long time and it too was attributed to an 'unknowable' magic. Today we know it's DNA.
Before that infection was attributed to evil spirits. Today we know it's due to microbes.
Give neurological science some time to work on the puzzle, and it will explain consciousness too.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,958
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: Diploid]
#5166622 - 01/11/06 11:14 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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then how can you be so pompous when to say it is "biochemsitry and nothing more"
when you admit you don't know and declare that you do, you take a difficult position.
partial and misleding knowledge, and a closed mind are not a good prescription IMO.
so I repeat the question with a gentle rephrasing as if you did have an opened mind,
"based upon what we do know, what do you think the pattern is, and how might that be processed?"
I believe that the existence of copus callosum and other axon wiring bundles (that run point to point targetting the cortex including optic bundles, auditory bundles, somatosensory bundles...) will give you something rich to speculate on in a physical way.
You don't need to believe in a spirit to see what the patterns (engrams) might be like in the cortex, and you don't need to eliminate the possibility of it either.
In any case your open mind is your best tool.
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~~~~~
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,217
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
#5166655 - 01/11/06 11:29 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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then how can you be so pompous when to say it is "biochemsitry and nothing more"
This is how some philosophical discussions go. Someone makes an assertion, someone else picks it apart if they can.
It may be hard for you to believe, but every opinion I present here is done so that it can be either picked apart (in which case I have been taught something) or so that it can be shown to withstand critique (in which case my hold on the opinion is strengthened).
My belief that we are nothing more than biochemistry is based on a century of accumulated knowledge of neurology. It's not something I just pulled out of thin air. If someone can refute me with something more substantial than just stating "Diploid, you're wrong", which is all anyone ever says, then go for it and I'll listen intently. Otherwise, my conclusions stand uncontested.
so I repeat the question with a gentle rephrasing as if you did have an opened mind,
"based upon what we do know, what do you think the pattern is, and how might that be processed?"
Asked and answered. I don't know. If I did, I'd be famous. This doesn't mean it's unknowable, only that it's currently unknown.
In any case your open mind is your best tool. 
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
Edited by Diploid (01/11/06 11:37 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,958
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: Diploid]
#5166763 - 01/11/06 12:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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the wiring is a most important clue in seeing what the patterns are that change by the moment from senses and memory and processing.
biochemistry affects the functioning of the wired components
and
biochemistry is how the wired components change/grow etc.,
but understanding the patterns is more about understanding sensory and memory multimedia and holograms than the specifics of the chemistry that the operating infrastructure uses.
If you do also understand the biochemistry you can see how it supports and distorts normal operation, which is much more complicated than a test-tube or a cup of chemicals.
the last century of neurological knowledge goes very far into structure and if you study it, it should not plop you into a biochemistry only belief system.
membrane and follicle extend biochemistry far beyond such simplifications.
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~~~~~
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,217
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
#5166794 - 01/11/06 12:25 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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biochemistry affects the functioning of the wired components
and
biochemistry is how the wired components change/grow etc.,
but understanding the patterns is more about understanding sensory and memory multimedia and holograms than the specifics of the chemistry that the operating infrastructure uses.
QED
Consciousness is not magical or metaphysical. It is the result of eventually-knowable natural laws of physics, chemistry, and mathematics... and there is no 'soul'.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,958
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Re: Split Brain Syndrome & More Evidence There Is No Soul [Re: Diploid]
#5166839 - 01/11/06 12:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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well you actually don't have enough information or enough of a proposal to merit that declaration aside from opinion only.
QED
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~~~~~
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