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 Blue Helix
old hand
Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,095
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
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In fact the more I think about this, the more certain I am that this theory I have is correct. The calcium carbonate equivalency (CCE) of calcium hydroxide is said to be between 120%-135% of caclium carbonate depending on the source impurities. Let's use 125%.
In Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms, it is recommended to add 10% calcium carbonate to balance out peat moss. That would be 1.5 cups per the 15 cups of peat in the 50/50 formula. If you apply the 1.0/1.25 ratio, you got 1.2 cups, exactly what the formula calls for. I am certain that is how this all nonsense got started.
I'll write Ryche Hawke about it later and see if he would be willing to remove reference to hydrated lime and stick with pulverized limestone or powdered oyster shell.
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Blue Helix
old hand
Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,095
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
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Turns out that the large pins I saw did not develop normally. The bases were huge and like bulbs, but the mushrooms were relatively small. I am not sure what caused the huge pins, but they did not develop into huge mushrooms, just bulb bases. The trays that produced the most on the first flush, had the least on the second and vice versa. The one that produced 51 ounces on the first flush, for example, only had two dozen medium to small mushrooms on it and is not pictured here.
 
UPDATE
The second flush yielded 1.4oz dry.
Edited by Blue Helix (07/26/05 10:32 PM)
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Blue Helix
old hand
Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,095
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
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I have taken your suggestion and commented in the FAQ sections for the sections:
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23455
http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/7977
I hope people read it.
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 agar
old hand
Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Trying to find FOOD GRADE DE, is like trying to find a 30 year old VIRGIN female topless dancer. It's tough. But, it's out there somewhere - if you keep looking.
HERE IS WHERE I got mine. But, that is a LONG way from - you. Cross country shipping would not be cheap.
They also stock OYSTER SHELL FLOUR  Best, I have ever found, as 80% is the size of FLOUR & the remainder is SAND sized.
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agar
old hand
Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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 Re: The Harvest!  [Re: agar]
#4459203 - 07/27/05 06:28 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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BTW, here is what happens when you don't stir or agitate a healthy LC.
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: The Harvest! [Re: agar]
#4459518 - 07/27/05 08:30 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't think Hawk ever meant to say calcium hydroxide. I'm nearly certain he meant calcium carbonate. He meant agricultural lime, which always means calcium carbonate, even if the hydroxide is used in agriculture as well. He wrote "agricultural HYDRATED lime" (emphasis mine). Just remove the "hydrated" and it's fine. Remember that Hawk wrote that tek a long, long time ago, not too long after he leaned casing at all. I think it was a typo. The formula seems sound if it's calcium carbonate.
And while we are on it, my favorite source of lime is oyster shells. I get boxes from the pet store for $2 each, about 3 cups per box. I put them in the blender and they blend nicely and quick with nowhere near the damage to the blades I expected the first time. In my blender when doing the whole box at a time, as it powders, the chunks stop falling to the blades and the whole mass stops mixing. Rather than stopping to stir and blend it all to a powder, I just dump it out when it stops mixing up. I end up with just as agar likes, 80% powder and 20% sand size particles in about 5 seconds. It's a little expensive compared to buying limestone flour at a feed store or something, but the only other local sources of lime are hydrated or dolomitic.
My favorite mix is 47.5% peat/47.5% verm/5% blended oyster shell. In other words a 50/50 with blended oyster shell at 10% of the Peat Volume. Sometimes I'll add some oyster shell as it comes from the box (chunky) If I'm expecting more than 4 flushes. Hey, doesn't that sound a lot like hawks formula just substituting blended oyster shell for what he calls "agricultural hydrated lime"?
So, to further deconstruct hawks formula, here's how I came up with mine. Stamets formula in TMC is 10% lime, 90% peat. That's why I use 10% of the peat volume. I just add an equal volume of verm to it rather than the 10% that Stamets recomends. Hawk says 4%. I bet that's how he came up with it, he's just off by .5%, which is fine sense he's adding crushed oyster shell as well.
I also add gypsum sometimes, when it's laying around. I'm not really sure why I do, it's recommended for a lot of gourmet species, but not cubensis. When it's used, I use an amount (roughly) equal to the volume of blended oyster shell. This would work out to....fuck, my math sucks, I can't make it add up, the closest I get is this, but it's only 99%?!!! 4.5% blended oyster shell/4.5% gypsum/45% peat/45% verm.
And more on casing tips, I'm not the only one who uses the mixer (like for mixing up cake mix etc) to ensure even mixture, am I? I mentioned this to somebody in a PM, and it was news to them. Sure that I picked it up on the boards somewhere, I searched and couldn't find it. So, here it is, use a handheld mixer to mix your casing mix. I mix in a cement tub, dump the ingredients in, flip it over a few times with a large spoon or spatula, add water, then use the mixer to break up the wet clumps. Let it sit for about an hour to really absorb all the water before you test it (oven or squeeze). You'll end up with a drier than optimum mix if you test it immediately after adding the water.
Unless of course you are making huge amounts, then you use a paint mixer paddle ($5 paint store/home depot) on your electric drill!
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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: The Harvest! [Re: mycofile]
#4459532 - 07/27/05 08:35 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hey, there's a lot of good info in here. Why don't we use all these tips to write an up to date casing tek for the faq/grow section? I'll consolidate the info that we all seem to agree on, and list the various specifics each of us use as variations/options.
So keep those casing thoughts coming. I'll have an outline in a few days. I'll post it in a new thread to get feedback from others, with link here.
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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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blackout
Microwaver
Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 3,356
Last seen: 4 months, 16 days
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Re: The Harvest! [Re: agar]
#4459538 - 07/27/05 08:38 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
agar said:
HERE IS WHERE I got mine.
I thought that was a source for virgin strippers, building my hopes up 
Quote:
I also add gypsum sometimes, when it's laying around. I'm not really sure why I do,
I thought it helps stop the grains from sticking, as well as raising ph a bit.
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Re: The Harvest! [Re: blackout]
#4459614 - 07/27/05 08:59 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, casings don't really stick. And I think it will eventually LOWER the pH about .5 once the sulfur gets freed. The onlyl reason Stamets mentions it is for species that need the extra sulfur, and to cause the mix to aggregate in a manner similar to the loamy soils originally used as casings. The mix is a little more, not reallly clumpy, but maybe bally. I actually don't like that when laying very thin layers (.5 in or less) because the casing isn't very even and you have to smooth it out, which eliminates the hills and valleys you want. It works fine for anything deeper than .5 in though.
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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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ihaveacow
ilovehumidity
Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 470
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: The Harvest! [Re: mycofile]
#4460870 - 07/27/05 03:52 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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thats badass man, props
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im me on aim... bennettbike
i dont smoke, drink, or abuse drugs, but because i trip spiritually twice a year i got a felony!
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Blue Helix
old hand
Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,095
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
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Re: The Harvest! [Re: mycofile]
#4462963 - 07/28/05 12:22 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I would never add gypsum to anything for cubes. Every time I have added it to anything with cubes, including straw, it slowed the growth for me. It could be the particular brand I tried, but I tried it about five different times and each time things didn't go well. Maybe it wasn't the gypsum, but this run proves I don't need it so why bother?
As for the casing formula I have here, I am going to use the exact same next time and prepare it the same way. Everything will be the same next time, which is why I have taken careful notes of this run. Why am I being like this? This was the best run I have ever done, and looking around here, I think it's about the best run anyone has had. It will be my model from now on, and I can tweak it from here on out if I need more shrooms in the future.
When you get about 100% biological efficiency the first flush and the shrooms are about twice as strong as normal, you don't change things next time. Sure the second flush was peanuts and the third coming on looks like a few big ones, but it doesn't matter after that first flush. Nothing matters to me after that first flush. Pulling off 9 pounds of fresh shrooms like that off about 2.5 square feet was a real rush. I mean the biological activity was so great that it felt to be at least 90F under the tops of those shrooms when I picked them. The whole chamber was practically steaming.
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Blue, I think it was your brand of gypsum. Perhaps it has magnessium in it, although I've only ever heard of that being in lime. I've used a bit of gypsum in probably 500 pounds of grain. I've had runs of 200%+ BE when using the same amount of gypsum as lime in the casing mix. I've also used gypsum in a peanut shell grow cause Stamets said it's good to keep the shells loose (I guess from all the oils?). But you're absolutely right, it's not NEEDED, and I never had results that showed it was obviously helpful in regards of yield or anything. I do think it could be very helpful if the peat one was using was very fine, to help loosen it up some, but that's all.
Your right about your run mix too. Why don't you write it up in tek form and add have it added to the grow and faq section? Then we can start telling people to use the Blue Helix tek instead of the 50/50. I've certainly been telling people to use one of your other teks for years, so it would only be appropriate to tell them to use your casing forumula too.
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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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Blue Helix
old hand
Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,095
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
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Re: The Harvest! [Re: mycofile]
#4467357 - 07/28/05 11:33 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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mycofile, I might do that this weekend. Actually, I have already added some corrections about the hydrated lime to the 50/50 section, but I could re-write the whole thing too.
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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,351
Loc: 
Last seen: 19 days, 1 hour
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Mycofile, how do you figure Hawk didnt mean hydrated lime (and meant oystershells/calcium carbonate) when he has both of these as ingredients:
* 4 1/2 cups crushed oyster shell
* 1.2 cups of hydrated lime
Why wouldnt he just say "5.7 cups of a calcium carbonate source like crushed oyster shells"? He obviously DID mean hydrated lime, since his ingredients contain a source of calcium carbonate AS WELL as the lime. I believe that he just used the forumla from the book as blue helix said, which made perfect sense.
So no, your recipe does not look just like his, even changing the hydrated lime to oystershells too (almost 6 cups of oyster shell to 15 cups peat moss), where as you (at 10% calc carb) would add only 1.5 cups...
Edit:
The scenario below vvvvvv seems much more likly then he split up the ingredients and just got mixed up as to what the names of the ingredients are.
Edited by scatmanrav (07/29/05 09:24 AM)
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Blue Helix
old hand
Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,095
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
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Yeah, I still hold by my original assertion that the 50/50 formula was a derivative of a 10% calcium carbonate formula from Paul Stamets with the calcium carbonate equivalency (CCE) factor misapplied. 10% would have been 1.55 cups; now you divide by a CCE of 1.3 and you have about 1.2. You can read about this factor here:
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/acid4.html
The reason the CCE can't be applied in an application like a casing soil pH adjust is because we aren't concerning our self with exhaustion of the reagent like in the case of soil pH adjustment. In casing soils, we intentionally put extra calcium carbonate in the mix that is not intended to dissolve or react but rather will just stay in the mix until later flushes when it will react with acids released at that time. That termed a long-term buffering action. We could do the exact same thing with hydrated lime but it buffers around a pH of 12.5 which is way too high. At the amount Ryche Hawke is suggesting should be in the mix, the casing would effectively be buffered at 12.5
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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scatman,
I was basing it on this from his tek:
Quote:
Adding 4% agricultural hydrated lime and 15% crushed oyster shell, by volume, to the over all 50/50 mix is a much better casing soil.
Which is the first line in the 50/50 + section (after the 50/50)
That's only .5% off of the amount of lime I use, which is why I think he might have come up with the figure the same way I did.
Quote:
Why wouldnt he just say "5.7 cups of a calcium carbonate source like crushed oyster shells"? He obviously DID mean hydrated lime, since his ingredients contain a source of calcium carbonate
I think he listed them separately because the oyster shell was added more for structure than for pH buffering (same reason I use it). See where he says:
Quote:
The soil seems to give the mushrooms more support so when your harvesting your not digging out deep chunks of mycelium from the substrate, instead they pull out very easily from the surface. The mushrooms also seem to grow much bigger this way being they have a stronger base into the mycelium network.
It really doesn't matter how he came up with it. It's just fun to try to deconstruct. Personally, I notice the similarity between something that I use, so I think Hawk must have done similar. Blue has noticed something similar to something he uses, so naturally he thinks that's what Hawk must have done. Either way, I think it obvious that both mixes are superior to Hawks' use of hydrated lime, so this is just a history theory.
--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,351
Loc:
Last seen: 19 days, 1 hour
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Re: The Harvest! [Re: mycofile]
#4476726 - 07/31/05 08:07 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes yes, I know just theories...reading over the tek it makes a little more sense...although I do still like BH's theory best  I wish hed answer so we knew, and so he'd alter it to make it clearer..
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