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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?!
    #3095768 - 09/05/04 05:12 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Feeling like something is watching you

Talking to yourself and imaginary beings or people. "Praying."

Feeling like you have a special purpose

Feeling like inanimate objects have special purposes

Certain things appearing as signs, or that they are talking to them, or are symbolic to some higher cause.

Beliving you are going to die for doing something "bad"

Feeling like you are dirty for doing something, and that you will suffer for eternity if you do not talk to yourself or to this "god"....

I have nothing against beliving in God, but you can sort of draw some paralels to Neurosis or Schizofrenic behaviour. Just forget about all the religious history and stuff, and just watch the person behave and you can actually start to see some matches.


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Offlinelovelight
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3095794 - 09/05/04 05:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Well i think you are closer to the truth than you realise. See

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...t=1#Post3094344

This post is about religious belief being a physical function of humankind. Scientists say its likely most people with Temporal Lobe epilepsy have a heightened sense of spirituality etc. but few are very severe and have strong mystical experiences.

A friend of mine used to say that there are plenty of Jesus Christs running around still today, it's just that now we can diognose them.

I don't know though, you can never really know what a person experiences or sees so you can never really judge its validity.


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Turn on your lovelight, let it shine on me


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Invisiblejux
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: lovelight]
    #3095830 - 09/05/04 05:38 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

maybe not, but the similarities are eerie. Scary how often genius and insane cross boundaries


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Offlinelovelight
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: jux]
    #3095877 - 09/05/04 05:52 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah that's true too! Look at the reputation artists have.
Like what's the first thing you think of when someone mentions Van Gough?


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: lovelight]
    #3095914 - 09/05/04 06:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Sunflowers. After that, the ear of course. The Dutch are crazy, take my word for it.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Offlinelovelight
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3095949 - 09/05/04 06:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

hahaha :nut:


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Anonymous
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3095987 - 09/05/04 06:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe schizophrenia is just a form of belief in God?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3096036 - 09/05/04 06:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think so, especially when accounts of the God experience are very similiar.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Zahid]
    #3096073 - 09/05/04 07:14 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

When I saw God it was amazing. I understand that God is more than what Christians commonly think of it. This belief makes me a heretic of sorts, but I like herecy, it's freedom.


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For my job I manually masterbate animals for internal insemination.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3097119 - 09/05/04 11:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Pretty funny, Northernsoul. I never thought of it that way. hehe.

:grin:


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You are a fluke of the universe; you have no right to be here, & whether you can hear it or not, the universe is laughing behind your back. -Deteriorata


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3100648 - 09/06/04 08:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry about the error of your theory, but I 'walk with GOD' and I am preeminently sane. In fact, as a state licensed, and Nationallly Board Certified Clinical Mental Health Counselor, my assessment will be recognized next July in Florida as an authority to 'Baker Act' an individual, which means, to have an individual involuntarily hospitalized for observation, if I deem them dangerous to self or others. Scary? No, not if you trust my sanity.

I can say that I "believe in GOD," and I can wax mystical and gnostic and say that "I Know GOD," but I do not cross the line and say "I Am GOD." THAT is an ego that is being flooded with Archetypal unconscious contents, and which one has identified one's ego with the Archetypal Self - the GOD Archetype. It is delusions of grandeur, paranoia, psychosis. The book 'The Three Christs of Ypsilanti' is about three such psychotics with Christ delusions, all put together in a state hospital. They begin to expand their delusions competatively: 'Well, I'm also the Holy Spirit.' 'Oh yeah, well I'm GOD the Father!' Very entertaining, but very very different from the genuine mystics and prophets who ARE aware of of GOD in varying degrees. Perhaps you should read the 19th century classic 'Cosmic Consciousness' by R.M. Bucke to get a better understanding.


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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3100716 - 09/06/04 08:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

How is it egotistical to say "I am God"? If God is infinite, then there can't be anything that isn't God, or is separate or outside of God.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3100791 - 09/06/04 08:56 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

This reminds me of a story told through al-Junayd about Hussein ibn Mansur al Hallaj. The story was about al-Hallaj when he said, "I am Allah (God)" and the notorious Pharoah who also said "I am Allah". Junayd said that there was a difference between what Hallaj had proclaimed and what the Pharoah proclaimed. Junayd said that when the Pharoah said "I am Allah" there was no absent of the self to be filled with Allah, the mind did not become silent because the Pharoah was arrogant and unaware how to empy himself. Junayd said, "The Pharoah was lying," a young Murid asked him, "But how can the colorful seeker (Hallaj) say the same thing as the Pharoah?" Junayd replied, "When Hallaj said he was Allah, there was no self awareness in Hallaj, there was only awareness of Allah. Hallaj had emptied himself of his identity which allowed Allah to take that place." It was here, that Hallaj had said, "I am God" (he would later be executed for saying 'I am the Truth' in a more public setting).

For my own comment, when the Pharoah said "I am God" the Pharoah was lying because he did not disregard his own ego, instead only inflated it further more. When Hallaj said it, it was as if God himself said it through Hallaj because Hallaj the person became absent. The lie of Hallaj's ego had to become absent in order for Allah's unseen to manifest. When Allah's spirit became manifest, while Hallaj still maintained motor skills, from head to toe Hallaj was the walking spirit of Allah in a fleshly trap.

"I am God" can be an ecstatic panentheistical expression of unity with the Divine, or it can be complete and utter arrogance in the case of the Pharoah. The difference is whether the false self/ego is present or not. The unseen of God does not manifest itself to those who only acknowledge theirselves.

peace/salam/shalom


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Offlinerdnp2035

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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3101213 - 09/06/04 10:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

This is someone's quote, "Schizophrenia is the nature of existance."
How else can it be? If any of this is real, then it comes from a source, which was at some point a single thing. The big bang split the whole into a trillion pieces. And here the bunch of us are talking about the seperation between us. But, we all come from the same stuff, and we share 99% of our genetic material that built us into thinking beings. So, if we are the same but also seperate, I think this points to the idea the schizophrenia is somehow deeply engrained into the cosmos. Know what I mean?


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Offlinesnowy
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3101461 - 09/06/04 11:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

'The Power of Now'
by
Ekhart Toll (sp?)

apparently "God", spirituality, or whatever is is in YOU. Makes sense and is very entertaining. Give it a read if you haven't

The Question of God
by?
sorry, don't have the book close at hand

THis is another great book. different than the last, not so instructional. It gives some great perspectives on the matter of the existance of god through the writings and lives of Sigmund Freud and C.S Lewis; two of the Western worlds greatest thinkers on the subject. Freud a devout atheist and Lewis an athiest gone to god (at the age of 30). Deffinitely a good read

At any rate, no one knows for sure if god exists or doesn't...it's just that simple. I think that one of the most important things to consider when forming an oppinion or taking a side is the other side. I've noticed that a lot of my peer group and perhaps others tend to be very misinformed about the antithesis of their beliefs.I'm sure you've (Northernsoul) offended a lot of people by equating a belief in god with schizophrenia...but anythings possible, you could be right :-)


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3101659 - 09/07/04 12:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I wish there was a God, or at least some kind of humane, comforting and anthropromorphic figure behind all of it. I left Christianity because I wanted to find God for real, in a way I could actually experience. All I have seen are empty grinding gears. It depresses me.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3101843 - 09/07/04 01:09 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Just believe, and you will find comfort when the great ego lesson (life) comes to an end.


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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: rdnp2035]
    #3105360 - 09/07/04 07:55 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Shit, some people dont even belive in Evolution. They think that all the science behind evolution was planted by someone, or fake. Go figure.

But these same people who call scientists crazy are just as crazy themselves from many perspectives. And one could be that they are crazy because they talk to thier own hand "prey"...and chant to imaginary beings....


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--------------------------------------------------------------

When it comes
I'll know, I know
Just take my clothes and leave
And I'll be gone




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OfflineZahid
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3105557 - 09/07/04 08:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The main argument against evolution is that it is biologically impossible.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Zahid]
    #3105576 - 09/07/04 08:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
The main argument against evolution is that it is biologically impossible.



Only if you are ignorant of biology.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3105652 - 09/07/04 08:48 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

If you say so.


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OfflineMetatrad
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Zahid]
    #3105693 - 09/07/04 08:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Does this refuting of evolution happen to involve the giraffe as an example? If so, I've heard it before.

So, what's so hard to believe about particular genetic variations/mutations of a species being better for survival, hence living long enough to procreate?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Metatrad]
    #3105769 - 09/07/04 09:11 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I couldn't really recall, but I have read some fairly well composed books (Such as 'The Evolution Deceit' by Harun Yahya) and articles that refuted Evolution using biology and science to its advantage. I am not a scientist, thought.

I am however an Evolutionist and a Creationist - I believe evolution was instrumented by God, and only in the last few 10,000 years the interesting result of this gradual growth has reached its viewing point.


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OfflineOOISI
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Zahid]
    #3107246 - 09/08/04 05:33 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

first of all, just say insane instead of "schizo"
and second of all beleiving in god a form of scizophrenia ask yourself is beleif in insanity or "schizophrenia" a form of paranoia?

also maybe not beleiving in god is a sign of weakness, insecurity maybe?
let me elborate, the thought of a "higher entity causing us, being our mentor, something we cant understand, we choose not to accept it maybe cause we fear maybe cause were insecure, who knows.
Im probably schizo cause i beleive in GOD.

p.s. zahid im not replying to you but northern soul


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I been practicing grabbing the noose when the knot slips,
rewiring my mind to make the firing squad miss..
and while their busy reloading, im decoding
the messages you sent with this key that i keep holding.
But its a copy and the lock seems broken,
got me choking on discussions that i can not keep open - Sage

Edited by OOISI (09/08/04 05:38 AM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: OOISI]
    #3107274 - 09/08/04 06:23 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

> first of all, just say insane instead of "schizo" and second of all beleiving in god a form of scizophrenia

Back up a bit more... what is the definition of insane? How do doctors define what is insane and what is not. Once you understand the definitions, you will see that the original question no longer makes sense.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineWiccan_SeekerM
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3107323 - 09/08/04 07:25 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Now let's not shout "schizophrenia" before we establish for the readers what Schizophrenia is.


Quote:

DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA for SCHIZOPHRENIA (American Definition)
.
Diagnostic Criteria
.
.
Characteristic symptoms: Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated):
delusions
hallucinations
disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
negative symptoms, i.e., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition
Note: Only one Criterion A symptom is required if delusions are bizarre or hallucinations consist of a voice keeping up a running commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices conversing with each other.
.
Social/occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset (or when the onset is in childhood or adolescence, failure to achieve expected level of interpersonal, academic, or occupational achievement).
Duration: Continuous signs of the disturbance persist for at least 6 months. This 6-month period must include at least 1 month of symptoms (or less if successfully treated) that meet Criterion A (i.e., active-phase symptoms) and may include periods of prodromal or residual symptoms. During these prodromal or residual periods, the signs of the disturbance may be manifested by only negative symptoms or two or more symptoms listed in Criterion A present in an attenuated form (e.g., odd beliefs, unusual perceptual experiences).
.
Schizoaffective and Mood Disorder exclusion: Schizoaffective Disorder and Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features have been ruled out because either (1) no Major Depressive, Manic, or Mixed Episodes have occurred concurrently with the active-phase symptoms; or (2) if mood episodes have occurred during active-phase symptoms, their total duration has been brief relative to the duration of the active and residual periods.
.
Substance/general medical condition exclusion: The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.
.
Relationship to a Pervasive Developmental Disorder: If there is a history of Autistic Disorder or another Pervasive Developmental Disorder, the additional diagnosis of Schizophrenia is made only if prominent delusions or hallucinations are also present for at least a month (or less if successfully treated).


---------------------------------------------------------------------
.
Diagnostic Criteria of Schizophrenia Subtypes
Paranoid Type
A type of Schizophrenia in which the following criteria are met:
.
Preoccupation with one or more delusions or frequent auditory hallucinations.
None of the following is prominent: disorganized speech, disorganized or catatonic behavior, or flat or inappropriate affect.
..Catatonic Type
A type of Schizophrenia in which the clinical picture is dominated by at least two of the following:
.
motoric immobility as evidenced by catalepsy (including waxy flexibility) or stupor
excessive motor activity (that is apparently purposeless and not influenced by external stimuli)
extreme negativism (an apparently motiveless resistance to all instructions or maintenance of a rigid posture against attempts to be moved) or mutism
peculiarities of voluntary movement as evidenced by posturing (voluntary assumption of inappropriate or bizarre postures), stereotyped movements, prominent mannerisms, or prominent grimacing
echolalia or echopraxia
..Disorganized Type
A type of Schizophrenia in which the following criteria are met:
.
All of the following are prominent:
disorganized speech
disorganized behavior
flat or inappropriate affect
The criteria are not met for Catatonic Type.
.
..Undifferentiated Type
A type of Schizophrenia in which symptoms that meet Criterion A are present, but the criteria are not met for the Paranoid, Disorganized, or Catatonic Type.
.
Residual Type
A type of Schizophrenia in which the following criteria are met:
.
Absence of prominent delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech, and grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior.
There is continuing evidence of the disturbance, as indicated by the presence of negative symptoms or two or more symptoms listed in Criterion A for Schizophrenia, present in an attenuated form (e.g., odd beliefs, unusual perceptual experiences).


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Differential Diagnosis
Psychotic Disorder Due to a General Medical Condition, delirium, or dementia; Substance-Induced Psychotic Disorder; Substance-Induced Delirium; Substance-Induced Persisting Dementia; Substance-Related Disorders; Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features; Schizoaffective Disorder; Depressive Disorder Not Otherwise Specified; Bipolar Disorder Not Otherwise Specified; Mood Disorder With Catatonic Features; Schizophreniform Disorder; Brief Psychotic Disorder; Delusional Disorder; Psychotic Disorder Not Otherwise Specified; Pervasive Developmental Disorders (e.g., Autistic Disorder); childhood presentations combining disorganized speech (from a Communication Disorder) and disorganized behavior (from Attention-Deficit/ Hyperactivity Disorder); Schizotypal Personality Disorder; Schizoid Personality Disorder; Paranoid Personality Disorder.





If you, the reader, have read this carefully and basically read the story of your life & hardships or feel worried this might pertain to you by all means I urge you to get a psychologic evaluation to see if you not qualify for medical treatment.
If people are caught by psychological screening with only latent, residual psychosis or they are identified between psychoses usually a low, minimally unpleasant or even pleasant dosage of specific pharms may prevent future episodes from occurring at all.

I myself am on low-dose haldol (2mg = 100mg chlorpromazine as to psychotic efficiency) because i basically am excitement, being a chronic maniac (most of the time I am lightly manic, let's call it "euphoric derangement" :grin:)
For me after years with & without it causes no real side-effects but it rather it helps me to have conversations without coming across like a crazed squirrel on crack.

But the bottom line is that religion is compared with mental illness. Medically an illness is "something biological/pychological that strays from the average norm in a way that is percieved as detrimental by the affected and/or those around them".
Since the USSR (like the USSA today) repressed people by abusing this principle (Politicopath :shocked:Capitalist Personality Disorder :shocked:) you should apply common sense and get apolitical with definitions.
I could declare somebody's red nose (or homosexuality) as adverse to my happiness but thats just bullshit political reasoning.

So let's look at your list from another side:



Feeling like something is watching you ---> or benevolently watching OVER you in perfect love and perfect trust.

Talking to yourself and imaginary beings or people. "Praying." ---> reinforcing your beliefs in the Greater Good and that you can be better then you are and that there is hope by externalizing thought processes.

Feeling like you have a special purpose ---> striving to achieve a goal you think will make the world a better place

Feeling like inanimate objects have special purposes ---> recognising and perhaps enhancing the value of objects, increasing your appreciation of the Any & All

Certain things appearing as signs, or that they are talking to them, or are symbolic to some higher cause. ---> LSD

Beliving you are going to die for doing something "bad" ---> dogma very specific to some religions but not others.

Feeling like you are dirty for doing something, and that you will suffer for eternity if you do not talk to yourself or to this "god"... ---> dogma very specific to some religions but not others.


Basically it is a double-edged sword: you can reinforce the good or the bad in people with Religion.

I hate to say it but basically Religion, like LSD, is a neutral entity: it can be detrimental or uplifting, deliberate or unintentional.

Visonaries in a way could be argued to be schizophrenic, but because they derive and yield benefit rather then detrimental chaos it is not a mental illness even though the core symptoms may overlap.

Have you ever had such vivid hallucinations that they completely replaced concensus reality, with voices speaking, past and future merging wit flights of fancy, being fully delivered into the maw of an insane logic where fantasy and reality are the same, a delirium followed by near-complete amnesia?
And would you voluntarily yield to this madness?

Yes. It is called Dreaming and we do it most nights of our life. We -all- are visionaries at heart. The alarmclock makes you arise briefly from your fullblown delirium.
You slap the "snooze" button.
You're out, and you're gone.
When it buzzes again, nine minutes later earthtime, you have spent hours of Dreamtime riding a wild pineapple, hunting and shooting your own oats & raisins for your early morning muesli in fullblown Delirium. Now that is HEALTHY.

If you get an overlap of waking consiousness into dreams it is called "lucid dreaming".

If your "dream machine" starts to run by itself in daytime the result is chaos, and from that chaos you either emerge victorious (Visionary) or you crumble, and the latter is called a psychotic break.

New neurobiological data I've seen shows there is an overlap in mechanism in Dreams, Delirium and Psychosis and thus I believe that the core nature of psychosis is a disturbance in the brain's ability to regulate waking and dreaming conscious brainstates.
Sane by day/Psychotic by night