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 Lightningfractal
I survived itall, includingthe internet!
Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,270
Loc: Taking over the world
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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 Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski
#2441201 - 03/16/04 09:09 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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http://www.panix.com/~clays/Una/
Everybody read this book? I agree with his assessments. If you have not yet read this in full, you should. the media portreyed him as a madman, but he was a one man revolution. 
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LF - Striking down with great vengeance, and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers! (since 2003)
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all
FecalDildo said:
"The site would gain nothing by your idea of "Open discussions". "
Edited by Lightningfractal (03/16/04 09:29 PM)
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ceephax
Tapeworm
Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Gastrointestinal track
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
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 Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2441643 - 03/16/04 11:41 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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I read this a few months back and I hate to say it, he's pretty much right.
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What am I saying? I'm not even Chinese!
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 bert
bodhi
Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2441700 - 03/17/04 12:05 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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I read the whole thing and I didn't realize who wrote it until afterwards. Now I feel kinda crazy....
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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Cather
journeyman
Registered: 02/23/04
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2442105 - 03/17/04 05:14 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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hmmmmmmmmm
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daba
Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 3,872
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2442230 - 03/17/04 06:44 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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That is quite large of a read, and too harsh for my eyes to just stare at. Is there a printable e-book version?
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Fold for The Shroomery!
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daba
Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 3,872
Last seen: 6 months, 7 days
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2442237 - 03/17/04 06:47 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lightningfractal said:
http://www.panix.com/~clays/Una/
Everybody read this book? I agree with his assessments. If you have not yet read this in full, you should. the media portreyed him as a madman, but he was a one man revolution.
The average Joe is not very intelligent. The media owns him and his family and his microcosm of a community he dwells in. I look forward to reading it, if I can find a printable copy. My oh my what a wonderful day. Sorry I'm, well, beside myself. up     
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Fold for The Shroomery!
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Lightningfractal
I survived itall, includingthe internet!
Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,270
Loc: Taking over the world
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: daba]
#2442753 - 03/17/04 09:46 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0182.html?printable=1
There you are! I welcome any discussion on this book after it has been read.
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LF - Striking down with great vengeance, and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers! (since 2003)
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all
FecalDildo said:
"The site would gain nothing by your idea of "Open discussions". "
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Lightningfractal
I survived itall, includingthe internet!
Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,270
Loc: Taking over the world
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: bert]
#2442789 - 03/17/04 10:00 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I was read the whole thing and I didn't realize who wrote it until afterwards. Now I feel kinda crazy....
I hope that everyone who reads it can read it and evaluate it's content, without respect for the demonization of the author. 
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LF - Striking down with great vengeance, and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers! (since 2003)
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all
FecalDildo said:
"The site would gain nothing by your idea of "Open discussions". "
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 12,630
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2442881 - 03/17/04 10:36 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Demonization?????? The shitbag's a murderer, whatever the value of his ideas. Shit, I got some ideas you couldn't understand, but I don't blow you or your secretary up over it
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"For anyone who cares I know zappaisgod personally. He is gay. He is jewish. He is a douche. And he both, has a crush on me:" Some Incredible Retard
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Lightningfractal
I survived itall, includingthe internet!
Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,270
Loc: Taking over the world
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: zappaisgod]
#2442912 - 03/17/04 10:45 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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My point was simply that he was demonized in an attempt to further detract from his ideology.
It would be a shame to let yourself be swayed by this when you go to read what he wrote.
Kill a man, you're a murderer. Kill many, you're a conqueror.
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LF - Striking down with great vengeance, and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers! (since 2003)
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all
FecalDildo said:
"The site would gain nothing by your idea of "Open discussions". "
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kushlover
stringcheesehead
Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 803
Loc: USA
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2443175 - 03/17/04 12:03 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have to disagree on this one. He demonized himself through the actions he took. No matter how valid/beleivable your ideology, blowing up innocent people (terrorism) will rarley make the masses sympathetic to your views. Look at what happened in Spain recently. Millions of people took to the streets to protest the alleged train bombers. Would you say that that happened due to media demonization?
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What I'm about to tell you is the truth.......
What I just told you is a lie.
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ergot
MydriasicVisionary
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: kushlover]
#2444013 - 03/17/04 04:11 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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The question is, how innocent were his victims?
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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2444029 - 03/17/04 04:21 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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The question here, I think, is whether his actions undermined his ideas. Does the fact that he killed all those people mean that we should discount his ideas as the ravings of a madman? I wouldn't say that, but one has to wonder if acceptance of his ideas lead invariably to the support for such brutal actions. Kaczynski was a murderer. No two ways about it. But that doesn't mean we should discount his ideas simply because they were his.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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bert
bodhi
Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: silversoul7]
#2444037 - 03/17/04 04:25 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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If he follows his own beliefs and it leads to murder. Doesn't that mean that if we were to fully understand his ideas and act on them, that we should also act in a similar fashion as him?
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: bert]
#2444074 - 03/17/04 04:34 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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We can fully understand his ideas without fully accepting them and still learn from them. For example, I believe that much can be learned from reading Marx's ideas without becoming a communist.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Lightningfractal
I survived itall, includingthe internet!
Registered: 06/24/03
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Loc: Taking over the world
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: bert]
#2444332 - 03/17/04 06:07 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
If he follows his own beliefs and it leads to murder. Doesn't that mean that if we were to fully understand his ideas and act on them, that we should also act in a similar fashion as him?
If we are to now begin the discussion of the manuscript...
You will remember that he advocated a revolution against technology, and that this revolotion may or may not use violence.
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LF - Striking down with great vengeance, and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers! (since 2003)
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all
FecalDildo said:
"The site would gain nothing by your idea of "Open discussions". "
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,110
Last seen: 2 months, 21 days
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski *DELETED* [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2451532 - 03/19/04 12:33 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by NiamhNyxReason for deletion: embarrassing
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Lightningfractal
I survived itall, includingthe internet!
Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,270
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Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: NiamhNyx]
#2454175 - 03/20/04 12:08 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, you can't change a thing through "channels". The "channels" themselves are set up to serve the system. Ted was trying to take out who he saw as key individuals in genetic engineering research.
You can't win a war without bloodshed. If the United States kills thousands of Iraqis civillians that had nothing to do with 9/11 with bombs intended to kill Sadaam Hussein, call it war. Collateral damage they call the innocent dead.
Oh so righteous.
But kill a few people in an attempt to save humanity from certain bondage and destruction, and he's a murderer?
I don't believe everything I see on T.V., I'm sorry.
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LF - Striking down with great vengeance, and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers! (since 2003)
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all
FecalDildo said:
"The site would gain nothing by your idea of "Open discussions". "
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aaronumbra
www.wherewestand.orgCo-Founder
Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Houston, TX
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2454927 - 03/20/04 03:50 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've read most of it before, but going to read it all now. It's very interesting, but one way or another we are going to change the way we live entirely through technology or are going to founder. Peak Oil, topsoil loss, and many other factors if not properly addressed will be the end of us in the relatively soon future.
We should have been bracing energy crisis when it was proposed with Carter.
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"The army is on Ecstasy, so they say. I read all about it in USA Today. They stepped up drug testing to make it go away. It's hard to kill the enemy rollin' on MDMA."
-Oysterhead
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FrothytooFlacid
Too Many Oils
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#2455926 - 03/20/04 10:53 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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I printed that off and read it today. He said something like our degree of freedom is dependent more on technology and economic structure than Government system. That is quite an interesting idea.
How wonderful it would be to stand amidst the smouldering ruins of industrial civilization. I always felt envious of the men who lived through the American Revolution. It must have been tough, no doubt, but it would nevertheless be exciting to be a part of such great change. Perhaps we will get our day in the sun.
So much to think about... I don't know where I'm going... I don't know what to expect anymore. Things keep going on.
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There is more.
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freddurgan
Techgnostic
Registered: 01/11/04
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#7747350 - 12/11/07 10:13 PM (1 year, 29 days ago) |
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I'm curious if anyone knows in any detail what he meant by "real goals".
And I quote
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"For many if not most people, surrogate activities are less satisfying than the pursuit of real goals (that is, goals that people would want to attain even if their need for the power process were already fulfilled)."
"Thus the power process is disrupted in our society through a deficiency of real goals and a deficiency of autonomy in pursuit of goals."
"We suggest that the fulfillment they need is adequate experience of the power process—with real goals instead of the artificial goals of surrogate activities.)"
"By "freedom" we mean the opportunity to go through the power process, with real goals not the artificial goals of surrogate activities..."
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He gives a definition in the first quote but that's clearly up to interpretation. What exactly are real goals? Are they only bare essentials? Is he talking that people should only just fish/hunt, make clothes, chop wood, etc? What do you guys think Ted meant by that.
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Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org
Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: freddurgan]
#7747749 - 12/12/07 12:20 AM (1 year, 29 days ago) |
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I think he meant that in contemporary society, a lot of people experience false consciousness-- they chase after things they don't really want to fill their need to overcome challenge and achieve social recognition. This would suggest that "real goals" are the sorts of things people would choose to do if they were living authentically instead of filling holes with what he called "surrogate activity." I don't think he's really saying what people should have for goals, or that the only "real goals" are those to do with going back to the land. But then again, I still haven't read his manifesto and am simply interpreting the quotes you posted through my minimal second hand knowledge of his ideas.
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pacific blue
Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Next to an ocean
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 Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: freddurgan]
#7747763 - 12/12/07 12:29 AM (1 year, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
freddurgan said (3 years and 9 months after the last post):
I'm curious if anyone knows in any detail what he meant by "real goals".
I thought that only Je-hay-zee-us ("Jesus" is holier if you add more syllables) could resurrect threads this old. It's a miracle!
/The Unabomber is so 2004. Domestic terrorism 2007-style is all about shooting up megachurches run by closet homosexuals, doncha know.
Edited by pacific blue (12/12/07 12:33 AM)
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freddurgan
Techgnostic
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: pacific blue]
#7748377 - 12/12/07 08:36 AM (1 year, 28 days ago) |
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Yes, I did perform a miracle but it's the only manifesto thread available.
Goals that people "would choose to do if they were living authentically" still doesn't make any sense.
In his manifesto he says that scientists do not research due to their "curiosity", but in reality it's just another surrogate activity with other rewards such as prestige. He's clearly against certain activities and I get the feeling "real goals" means something, despite how vague he left it.
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Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org
Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: freddurgan]
#7749143 - 12/12/07 12:19 PM (1 year, 28 days ago) |
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He definitly is against certain activities, but that doesn't mean he thinks that hunting and gathering are the only "real goals" possible. Or maybe he does. I don't know enough about his ideas to tell you.
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mikebart101
Catcher in the Rye
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7749912 - 12/12/07 03:47 PM (1 year, 28 days ago) |
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He's referring to man's survival instincts as the only 'real goal' a human being should have.
Materialism = no purpose
Technology = no purpose
Industrialization = no purpose
Government = no purpose
Money = no purpose
....the list goes on and on and eliminating each and every one brings you back to the dawn of man. Something many of us here wish we could be a part of; total innocence.
Killing to survive = hunting
Taking to survive = gathering
Understanding these goals takes great strength, for one must learn to take what he truly needs. That is man's ultimate goal; the discipline of oneself to survive.
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-"You wish to see the frontier?"
-"Yes sir, before it's gone."
Edited by mikebart101 (12/12/07 03:58 PM)
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