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 freddurgan
Techgnostic
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 Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#7747350 - 12/11/07 10:13 PM (1 year, 29 days ago) |
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I'm curious if anyone knows in any detail what he meant by "real goals".
And I quote
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"For many if not most people, surrogate activities are less satisfying than the pursuit of real goals (that is, goals that people would want to attain even if their need for the power process were already fulfilled)."
"Thus the power process is disrupted in our society through a deficiency of real goals and a deficiency of autonomy in pursuit of goals."
"We suggest that the fulfillment they need is adequate experience of the power process—with real goals instead of the artificial goals of surrogate activities.)"
"By "freedom" we mean the opportunity to go through the power process, with real goals not the artificial goals of surrogate activities..."
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He gives a definition in the first quote but that's clearly up to interpretation. What exactly are real goals? Are they only bare essentials? Is he talking that people should only just fish/hunt, make clothes, chop wood, etc? What do you guys think Ted meant by that.
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Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org
Ron Paul 2008!
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
 
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: freddurgan]
#7747749 - 12/12/07 12:20 AM (1 year, 29 days ago) |
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I think he meant that in contemporary society, a lot of people experience false consciousness-- they chase after things they don't really want to fill their need to overcome challenge and achieve social recognition. This would suggest that "real goals" are the sorts of things people would choose to do if they were living authentically instead of filling holes with what he called "surrogate activity." I don't think he's really saying what people should have for goals, or that the only "real goals" are those to do with going back to the land. But then again, I still haven't read his manifesto and am simply interpreting the quotes you posted through my minimal second hand knowledge of his ideas.
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 pacific blue
Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Next to an ocean
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 Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: freddurgan]
#7747763 - 12/12/07 12:29 AM (1 year, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
freddurgan said (3 years and 9 months after the last post):
I'm curious if anyone knows in any detail what he meant by "real goals".
I thought that only Je-hay-zee-us ("Jesus" is holier if you add more syllables) could resurrect threads this old. It's a miracle!
/The Unabomber is so 2004. Domestic terrorism 2007-style is all about shooting up megachurches run by closet homosexuals, doncha know.
Edited by pacific blue (12/12/07 12:33 AM)
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freddurgan
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: pacific blue]
#7748377 - 12/12/07 08:36 AM (1 year, 28 days ago) |
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Yes, I did perform a miracle but it's the only manifesto thread available.
Goals that people "would choose to do if they were living authentically" still doesn't make any sense.
In his manifesto he says that scientists do not research due to their "curiosity", but in reality it's just another surrogate activity with other rewards such as prestige. He's clearly against certain activities and I get the feeling "real goals" means something, despite how vague he left it.
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Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org
Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: freddurgan]
#7749143 - 12/12/07 12:19 PM (1 year, 28 days ago) |
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He definitly is against certain activities, but that doesn't mean he thinks that hunting and gathering are the only "real goals" possible. Or maybe he does. I don't know enough about his ideas to tell you.
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mikebart101
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7749912 - 12/12/07 03:47 PM (1 year, 28 days ago) |
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He's referring to man's survival instincts as the only 'real goal' a human being should have.
Materialism = no purpose
Technology = no purpose
Industrialization = no purpose
Government = no purpose
Money = no purpose
....the list goes on and on and eliminating each and every one brings you back to the dawn of man. Something many of us here wish we could be a part of; total innocence.
Killing to survive = hunting
Taking to survive = gathering
Understanding these goals takes great strength, for one must learn to take what he truly needs. That is man's ultimate goal; the discipline of oneself to survive.
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-"You wish to see the frontier?"
-"Yes sir, before it's gone."
Edited by mikebart101 (12/12/07 03:58 PM)
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: mikebart101]
#7750214 - 12/12/07 05:04 PM (1 year, 28 days ago) |
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I don't think that's quite what he means...
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freddurgan
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: mikebart101]
#7750938 - 12/12/07 07:21 PM (1 year, 28 days ago) |
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That's an intense interpretation but I believe it's not that far from the truth. He lived very much like that so perhaps that statement defines real goals well.
But at the same time he made some references that make me think otherwise.
For example
"208. We distinguish between two kinds of technology, which we will call small-scale technology and organization-dependent technology. Small-scale technology is technology that can be used by small-scale communities without outside assistance. Organization-dependent technology is technology that depends on large-scale social organization. We are aware of no significant cases of regression in small-scale technology. But organization-dependent technology does regress when the social organization on which it depends breaks down. Example: When the Roman Empire fell apart the Romans' small-scale technology survived because any clever village craftsman could build, for instance, a water wheel, any skilled smith could make steel by Roman methods, and so forth. But the Romans' organization-dependent technology did regress. Their aqueducts fell into disrepair and were never rebuilt. Their techniques of road construction were lost. The Roman system of urban sanitation was forgotten, so that only until rather recent times did the sanitation of European cities equal that of Ancient Rome.", emphasis added
So apparently he's not against ALL technology or technological goals. One would think he's against technology that "binds" people to it. Technology that people need. But that seems to be false as he's really against technology that necessitates binding of people together. For instance, primitive hunter gatherers were completely dependent on their spears and their shelter, but they weren't dependent on anyone else for those things. He seems to put maximum emphasis on individual ability and skill.
So perhaps real goals aren't only survival instincts but goals that enhance one's own individual strength if one were to find himself outside of the organized technological system?
Or perhaps that's one and the same thing.
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Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org
Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
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Compass
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Re: Industrial Society and it's Future, by Theodore Kaczynski [Re: Lightningfractal]
#8385038 - 05/10/08 11:59 AM (7 months, 26 days ago) |
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As I was reading about the power process and the 3 difficulty-levels of human drives, I started thinking about psychedelics.
The pursuit of psychedelic substances and experiences greatly fulfills the power process, or so it seems. Autonomy is certainly served through the illegality of the act. The effort is nontrivial with the difficulty of procuring the plant/fungus/chemical and navigating the trip.
But what is the goal? If the goal is simply a changed mind, a changed person, a new and unique experience then the goal is attained. But if the psychedelic is just a means to an end, then the goal is further ahead in the realization of the new outlook. And that goal may be frustrated by society, as in the inability to share with others and fulfill new goals.
On the topic of 'real goals', I also think he talks about the fulfillment of emotion - love and anger - and trivial things like moving at one's own pace instead of with traffic.
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