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 chunder
marker
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 963
Loc: The City
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 Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html  [Re: ]
#1946634 - 09/24/03 02:27 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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The concept of a soul is just that, a concept. Its a model. Its not an idea that exists in the objective universe. Its based on something real, sure, but its not something thats specifically defined, like phluck said.
you have to remember that even our feeble concept of soul is nothing compared to the Higher Reality of it all. We have ants view in this infinite universe.
Basically I think chakras are just another way of visualizing and having that visualization manifest in your mind. Its just one way of many to understand a different aspect of the human condition.
since theres no scientifically collected evidence, then I suppose they would have to be made of some other kind of energy than electric fields.
still, i believe chakras are a good model to meditate on. Its just another vehicle of undoing yourself, just one of many. Whether or not its based on some kind of actual real energy system or not really won't matter when you Die. If you've evolved as much as you can during your life, then you'll be as prepared as you can be for trip through the darkness.
man, i'm high.
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Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,257
Loc: non-local
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: chunder]
#1946720 - 09/24/03 03:16 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Very well said, chunder.
If you were high when you wrote that write on!
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I think the worst time to have a heart attack is during a game of charades...or a game of fake heart attack. -Demetri Martin
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 MarkostheGnostic
Elder
 
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,181
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 4 hours, 12 minutes
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: Phluck]
#1947063 - 09/24/03 07:32 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Then you must not know what your essential motive is for doing anything. The permutations of a handful of universal motive energies can account for the individual differences in all of us, but our motives are universals. Perhaps instead of multitasking, you can grok the wisdom in that Zen saying: "When I walk, I just walk; when I sit I just sit." Multitasking is an unenlightened world gone mad.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,244
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 28 minutes, 13 seconds
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Then you must not know what your essential motive is for doing anything. The permutations of a handful of universal motive energies can account for the individual differences in all of us, but our motives are universals. Perhaps instead of multitasking, you can grok the wisdom in that Zen saying: "When I walk, I just walk; when I sit I just sit." Multitasking is an unenlightened world gone mad.
Most indubiantly.. I remember being on quite the cocaine and sleep deprivation tweak out, trying to use a computer, burning cd's for my friend that was there, cheking out a couple of different web pages, so on and so forth, and my brain decided that it wasn't possible to do all of it, all I kept thinking was "System resources dangerously low".
But, anyways, focusing on two tasks with 40% focus (which is about all anyone gives one thing) takes like three times as long as doing each task on its own with full focus.. or something, I just made up figures, but you get the point! 
Peace.
--------------------
  
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,385
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 6 days, 21 hours
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: ]
#1947329 - 09/24/03 11:11 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Since this is a place to discuss SPIRITUAL & PHILOSOPHICAL ideas, i deemed it wholly necessary to keep my subject matter as such."
You've certainly never taken Philosophy 101. Skepticism and logic are a key part of philosophy.
"The "ageless wisdom" is just that i suppose, "evidence" of our constitution& true heritage."
There's no way you can demonstrate that the "ageless wisdom" is anything more than a fairy tale. I understand that you believe in it, and I understand that you can feel that it's "true", but there's no way of knowing for sure if what you feel matches up with the actual nature of your being or if it just reflects the myths you've been taught.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,385
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 6 days, 21 hours
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"Then you must not know what your essential motive is for doing anything."
Just because my idea of what motivates my actions does not match yours does not make me ignorant. I see no reason to believe that we all share identical motives, although we are all human, and have brains that are similar to some extent, there are some who seem to genuinely lack certain emotional responses. See autism and psychopathy.
Our brains are constantly multitasking. Even during the calming focus of a Zen task, hundreds, thousands, or even millions of thoughts and associations are being made, even if they are not occuring conciously. Saying that multitasking is the result of unenlightened people suffering from madness, or that our soul is connected to seven chakras is a religious assumption based on your beliefs and is as baseless as any such idea.
Preaching, or simply telling me how you believe the universe works is not going to convince me. Unless there is some sort of evidence to distinguish your religious theories from the countless other ones out there, it remains just another religious view.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,296
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: fireworks_god]
#1947386 - 09/24/03 11:40 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Then you must not know what your essential motive is for doing anything. The permutations of a handful of universal motive energies can account for the individual differences in all of us, but our motives are universals. Perhaps instead of multitasking, you can grok the wisdom in that Zen saying: "When I walk, I just walk; when I sit I just sit." Multitasking is an unenlightened world gone mad.
Most indubiantly.. I remember being on quite the cocaine and sleep deprivation tweak out, trying to use a computer, burning cd's for my friend that was there, cheking out a couple of different web pages, so on and so forth, and my brain decided that it wasn't possible to do all of it, all I kept thinking was "System resources dangerously low".
But, anyways, focusing on two tasks with 40% focus (which is about all anyone gives one thing) takes like three times as long as doing each task on its own with full focus.. or something, I just made up figures, but you get the point!
Peace.
Also, it's more than about efficiancy it's about appreciation.
At times multitasking can be very efficiant...but does it enhance
the quality of your experience ? it might, some people love their
"neurosis", in which case I say keep it up  heck
why change anything if it ain't causing u or anyone else to
suffer...
Personally, I hate multitasking and love to revel in one experience
at a time. I read slowly and I like to take my time while doing
things...I savor it. That's just me.
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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,296
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: chunder]
#1947408 - 09/24/03 11:51 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
chunder said:
The concept of a soul is just that, a concept. Its a model. Its not an idea that exists in the objective universe. Its based on something real, sure, but its not something thats specifically defined, like phluck said.
you have to remember that even our feeble concept of soul is nothing compared to the Higher Reality of it all. We have ants view in this infinite universe.
Basically I think chakras are just another way of visualizing and having that visualization manifest in your mind. Its just one way of many to understand a different aspect of the human condition.
since theres no scientifically collected evidence, then I suppose they would have to be made of some other kind of energy than electric fields.
still, i believe chakras are a good model to meditate on. Its just another vehicle of undoing yourself, just one of many. Whether or not its based on some kind of actual real energy system or not really won't matter when you Die. If you've evolved as much as you can during your life, then you'll be as prepared as you can be for trip through the darkness.
man, i'm high.
I believe everything is a model. Physics is a model for the
Universe, and it's essential purpose is to be able to predict...
Gravity, Keplers laws etc, all a model so that we can predict
a short outcome in an observable universe - for our survival.
The most important thing about any model is does it serve
it's purpose ? A model may be there just to attract attention,
look appealing, or to examine a system and be able to predict
outcomes...
Some mythical models make it easier to impact our subconcious
minds - heck u don't have to look to far for this, go out and
watch a James Bond flick, The Last Sumari or something and
u'll know the effect. Read some Casteneda....
Psychological models help us understand and manipulate
our psyche and behavior as well.
In the case of Chakras, does my understanding, visualization,
and application of Chakras do anything for me ? that's the
important question...
The deal with the scientific model is that it encompasses many
other models by modeling "the essence". So what I mean is,
the Chakra model may be very useful, however, when approached
scientifically, we may discover that it's really another
manifestation of the hypnotic model (call it placebo if u
prefer) and that the hypnotic model can explain, predict and
be used instead. That doesn't invalidate the Chakra model
it simple makes it unecessarry since a better model is availible...
there...good thing I put my third contact lens in this morning
it has.
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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,244
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 28 minutes, 13 seconds
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: lucid]
#1947491 - 09/24/03 12:30 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
lucid said:
Also, it's more than about efficiancy it's about appreciation.
At times multitasking can be very efficiant...but does it enhance
the quality of your experience ? it might, some people love their
"neurosis", in which case I say keep it up heck
why change anything if it ain't causing u or anyone else to
suffer...
Personally, I hate multitasking and love to revel in one experience
at a time. I read slowly and I like to take my time while doing
things...I savor it. That's just me.
Well, efficency wasn't the right word, its more like quality (although whatever you are doing will probably be accomplished quicker with full focus, too, if it is like work or whatever, not something that you don't care how quick it is done), which comes in with appreciation.
Taking one task at a time with full focus allows you to absorb every detail about what it is that you are doing. The experience that you are having consists soley of the one task, and with full focus, you draw in every last detail, which allows you to not miss anything, and you will enjoy whatever it is you are doing more, too...
Also, so as to not mislead anyone, it wasn't "cocaine and sleep deprivation", as if I was deprived of coke as well, it was being on coke and also being sleep deprived (hhm.... did the former have anything to do with the latter, i wonder?). But yeah.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Anonymous
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: fireworks_god]
#1947789 - 09/24/03 02:02 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ok, the ageless wisdom is a fairy tale and seeking scientific logic to all these ideas is the way to go. Thanks for straightening me out, i was so lost. Thanks
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,244
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 28 minutes, 13 seconds
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: ]
#1947821 - 09/24/03 02:09 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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I once was lost.... but now I'm fooounddd.....
We all are lost. Oh, and, "there is no spoon".
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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chunder
marker
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 963
Loc: The City
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: ]
#1948072 - 09/24/03 03:19 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ok, the ageless wisdom is a fairy tale and seeking scientific logic to all these ideas is the way to go. Thanks for straightening me out, i was so lost. Thanks
You do recognize that the pursuit of knowledge within the parameters of science is valid, dont you? Science is a very helpful tool in understanding our reality.
You're on a computer right now. Ageless wisdom did not define the methods used to build that computer, scientifically collected and applied data did. Science is VERY valid and useful in many cases.
I just wanted to know if there was any kind of scientific evidence of a chakra system in the body, and so far, I haven't been able to find any. Thats not to say I haven't found a lot of information about chakras, and found much wisdom and truth in the underlying concept of the system. Whether or not I'm willing to accept and adopt the model of "spinning energy disks" is something I haven't decided yet, but I will certainly incorporate the ideas I've learned from reading about them into my overall view of the human condition. No need to blindly adopt yet another fucking dogma, eh?
Its not the only way of understanding, but its a good one. All phluck is saying is that he values science more than he values mystical tradition. This is simply a matter of personal preference, and you shouldn't be getting upset about that.
I think what lucid said is right on. If it Works for you, then great, its Real. If it doesn't Work for you, then it isn't Real. It doesn't really matter what methods you use to validate to others its existence. The only thing that matters is that it exists to you. You feelin' me?
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Anonymous
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: chunder]
#1948289 - 09/24/03 04:41 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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If it Works for you, then great, its Real. If it doesn't Work for you, then it isn't Real. It doesn't really matter what methods you use to validate to others its existence. The only thing that matters is that it exists to you.
 nuff,said.
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seraphim
pugilist andstamp licker
Registered: 08/01/00
Posts: 441
Loc: brooklyn, ny
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: Evidence of Chakras? [Re: chunder]
#1949187 - 09/24/03 08:54 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah. if you want to know if chakras are real, learn to open your own. if you experience it, then consider it real. don't let belief get in the way of knowledge.
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trying to lose the monkey mind a little bit
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,181
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 4 hours, 12 minutes
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: Phluck]
#1949568 - 09/24/03 10:44 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Maybe you should focus more on reading comprehension. If you did, then you would have read that chakra psychology is just what I worded it as - psychology. It is not a belief system and it is not a religion unless one is a Tantricist, which I am not. I gave a rather brief but thorough description of an ancient system and showed the modern theorists who describe the same phenomenology of human motivation as the ancients. It is not a matter of belief, it is a matter of introspective awareness and experience. "Soul," BTW is 'psyche' in the Greek, and Plato was perhaps the first Westerner to outline a tripartite 'soul' - pseudo-chakra-like. Psychological realities are best communicated by symbol and metaphor. This may not be a strong point for you.
Moreover, I did not say that that multitasking was the result of mental illness, but it is very clear that you take everything most concretely, and did not discern that "a world gone mad" was a description of the masses of unenlightened individuals that predominate in society, who behave like 'a monkey who has been stung by a scorpion.' When bad drivers who populate Miami drive huge SUV's and talk on the phone AND apply makeup simultaneously, or when I see someone who appears not to own a motor vehicle, but is bicycling on a busy street at 8:00 AM, with a cigarette in his mouth and talking on a cell a cell phone - there is something unnatural or ridiculously narcisistic going on.
Lastly, I am presenting a very workable model to those who are interested. And those such as yourself who are not interested, I am not addressing in the first place. So if you read "preaching'' in my words, than read them again - slowly. As to convincing you about the truthfulness of anything that I post, I am not the least bit interested. Wanting to convince you personally would be a 'power motive,' on my part incidentally, and as I utilize this motive very sparingly and judiciously, do not misinterpret my general 'broadcasting' as a personal challenge to you. That would be paranoia.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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chunder
marker
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 963
Loc: The City
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So Markos, you think that chakras are just another model of some kind of underlying system that these other psychologists describe. Could you go into more detail about that?
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,181
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 4 hours, 12 minutes
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Re: http://www.healer.ch/Chakras-e.html [Re: chunder]
#1950470 - 09/25/03 07:56 AM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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At a level below the nerve plexuses, and below the astral-occult descriptions of the phenomenology of the chakras is a level where "psychocosmic forces" (Lama Govinda) interpenetrate the human locus. What I did was to show that the Tibetan Buddhist chakra model was a meta-theory - a theory of theories. I illustrated that the apparently contradictory schools of Western psychology (the ones that matched the phenomenology of the chakra descriptions) were all speaking of 'levels' or specific kinds of motivation, and that those different theories could be shown as ALL true, if they were placed on a hierarchy - the meta-model of the chakras.
So, one example is the Root Center (anal-genital complex; Muladhara & Svadhisthana combined). It deals with self-preservation and survival of the species on a psychophysical level. In fact, all the Freudian phenomenology about anality and genitality are tied up in this complex. Mortal fear - an emotion - is often registered by bowel release- anal activation. The source of sexual libido, of the Tibetan Inner Fire, the Hindu Kundalini with its anal placement and plallic serpentine symbolism. It is the 'foundation' and in the Buddhist Stupa, it is represented by the cubical, ground floor structure. After a successful Enlightenment experience, that Earth-bound center can be transformed and sublimated. Lama Govinda's 'Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism' read like a Doctoral course in electrical engineering if one looks at it, but with a lot of study, I simplified enough of it to make it quite useful to illustrate all the Centers in the ascending and descending route. Gotta run.........
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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