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 BBBlack
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Registered: 11/30/11
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 Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? 
#18528832 - 07/08/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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At the moment I have a mini mono in the middle of fruiting its first flush, created exactly as described in Doc_T's thread: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10713572/fpart/1/vc/1 . The only difference is that mine is a 12x12x12 tub. Same hole size and spacing - 1/4" hole every two inches. This is a horse manure / straw substrate at three inches thick.
The issue I'm having is that caps are opening on pins. It started out with one or two, but now I'm noticing more and I want to try and keep this from happening any longer, if that is possible once the pins have already appeared.
From what I've read, caps opening too soon is due to either too much water or too little, but I'm having difficulty figuring out which option my tub is suffering from. When colonization had finished but before pins appeared, I misted sporadically but not heavily - my gut tells me it wasn't enough. At one point, a good bit of space in one of the corners of the substrate got blue with bruising, indicating a lack of moisture. The sides of the substrate have all pulled away from the sides of the tub, which I understand can mean a dry sub or proper consolidation. Not certain which.
The possibility of the prematurely opening caps being due to a lack of moisture came to my attention a couple days ago, so I've been misting heavily since then, with a particularly heavy one last night which may or may not have directly lead me to waking up to at least three or four pins with newly broken veils.
This all has caused me confusion to the point that I haven't any idea whether I'm watering too much or or too little, because signs of each seem to be present. I realize my one heavy misting last night didn't necessarily cause these new cap openings, and that perhaps even after that soak there just still isn't enough water and those caps were going to open anyway. There is plenty of moisture visible on the surface of the mycelium while avoiding pooling water.
A vantage point in this issue is that I'm getting a good amount of side pinning, and lots of water drips from the walls after misting, landing in the crevices along the edges. This might hint at something.
My lighting is undoubtedly fine. The tub is getting plenty of FAE in a proper manner. I live in Colorado, so ambient humidity is on the low side. Humidity in the tub is being provided by an ultrasonic with a hose attachment whose nozzle opening is pressed right up against a hole on one side of the tub, shooting the mist directly into the tub and maintaining 90% - 100% RH. Funny thing is that on the substrate surface right below the hole that the hose has been shooting humidity through, there is the biggest pin in the whole tub. It's the largest by a good margin. Granted, it was also the first pin that popped up. But moisture tends to build at the connection point between the hose and tub wall, sometimes creating a stream of water that could have easily dripped down the inside of the tub wall and given that one area the water it needed to push out a big pin like this one. And it doesn't appear that its veil is opening... Hm...
If there is anything anyone can add here to shed some more experienced light on this matter, I'd be quite grateful. I want to try my best to get the hefty number of pins that I have been blessed with to grow into mature, meaty mushrooms.
Edited by BBBlack (07/08/13 07:58 AM)
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mpd
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: BBBlack]
#18528875 - 07/08/13 08:13 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Pics, please.
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BBBlack
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Registered: 11/30/11
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: mpd]
#18528993 - 07/08/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hopefully these are of good enough quality that they can be of some use. Figured I'd post a good handful rather than a few since their quality may be questionable. There is a a very light layer of vermiculite, which should explain the spottiness you may be wondering about. One picture shows the bruising I mentioned, but it appears green in the photograph. It's blue in life!
Hopefully something can be gathered from these:
Edited by BBBlack (07/08/13 09:15 AM)
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TheApprentice
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: BBBlack]
#18528998 - 07/08/13 09:13 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Looks dry. I would mist more. I mist my tubs every time I think about it.
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BBBlack
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Registered: 11/30/11
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Last seen: 2 months, 16 days
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: TheApprentice]
#18529013 - 07/08/13 09:20 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Read one of Roger Rabbit's posts that mentioned pouring water along the spacing between the substrate and tub walls, and letting it soak in. I've been thinking about doing this, but I wouldn't want to waterlog it if it is indeed suffering from too much water, then the whole thing would be ruined.
I'll wait for some more opinions based on the pictures and then decide whether or not to go through with the soak.
Edited by BBBlack (07/08/13 09:21 AM)
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 StygianKnight
A Mushroom
Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 2,717
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: TheApprentice]
#18529040 - 07/08/13 09:30 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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They certainly like the side conditions better, the center appears to not had enough consistent evaporation. If you're sure they have enough FAE then it's probably too dry.
If this is from spores I would guess funny genetics. Occasionally I've seen these in like a 'half-flush' between normal caps.
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StygianKnight
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: BBBlack]
#18529060 - 07/08/13 09:39 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
BBBlack said:I'll wait for some more opinions based on the pictures and then decide whether or not to go through with the soak.
With so many pins a drastic change in atmosphere like that might anger some of them.
IMO mist more times per day and let this set finish, then soak/dunk to rehydrate.
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BBBlack
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: StygianKnight]
#18529068 - 07/08/13 09:43 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
StygianKnight said:
They certainly like the side conditions better, the center appears to not had enough consistent evaporation. If you're sure they have enough FAE then it's probably too dry.
If this is from spores I would guess funny genetics. Occasionally I've seen these in like a 'half-flush' between normal caps.
You're right - lots more going on around the edges, and lots and lots of side pins. I was actually using an oscillating fan whose trajectory went across the path of the tub at a distance of about eight feet. I had it going like this up until about three days ago. My feeling is that it could have dried up the substrate a good bit. The fan is now pointing away from the tub. I'm thinking that even this might be too much, as the water that is left on the insides of the tub after misting disappears pretty quickly even with the humidifier running. I'll turn the fan even further from the tub and see what happens.
These are in fact spores, and I did read about the possibility of genetic funniness. Certainly not out of the question.
Quote:
StygianKnight said:
Quote:
BBBlack said:I'll wait for some more opinions based on the pictures and then decide whether or not to go through with the soak.
With so many pins a drastic change in atmosphere like that might anger some of them.
IMO mist more times per day and let this set finish, then soak/dunk to rehydrate.
Point taken!
Edited by BBBlack (07/08/13 09:48 AM)
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first time expert
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Registered: 02/19/13
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: BBBlack]
#18529095 - 07/08/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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some of my b+ do the same thing. Genetics play a big role how shrooms develop. You sub does look a bit dry tho.
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BBBlack
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Registered: 11/30/11
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: BBBlack]
#18529252 - 07/08/13 10:57 AM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sounds like it's leaning toward dryness at this point. Will keep misting, but more opinions would be a great help!
I can't help but wonder if the mushrooms will keep getting taller and meatier even if their cap opens early. I swear one of the pins whose cap opened has kept getting taller... Even if this did happen, would dropping spores become an issue?
Edited by BBBlack (07/08/13 11:06 AM)
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first time expert
practice makes perfect
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: BBBlack]
#18529853 - 07/08/13 02:00 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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they will continue to grow even if the caps are open. The spores dont drop untill they are fully developed. Just keep an eye on them and the gills will darken up when the spores are getting ready to drop.
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vanislandshroomer
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Registered: 09/24/11
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: first time expert]
#18529964 - 07/08/13 02:36 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was gonna say genetics, but by the look of the myc. I'd say you have a bacterial issue as well. Regardless, my first flushes tend to produce many mutants. The second flush should look alot nicer 
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Edited by vanislandshroomer (07/08/13 02:37 PM)
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BBBlack
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: vanislandshroomer]
#18530267 - 07/08/13 03:47 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
vanislandshroomer said:
I was gonna say genetics, but by the look of the myc. I'd say you have a bacterial issue as well. Regardless, my first flushes tend to produce many mutants. The second flush should look alot nicer
I've been having concerns about bacteria from the get-go with this grow. Excess metabolites during jar colonization, etc. Definitely more metabolites than what is typical. I don't doubt the possibility of an infection at all.
Will bacteria always manifest itself into something dangerous and/or detrimental? Or is it possible that this grow could move on through a good few flushes without the bad bacterial effects surfacing?
Edited by BBBlack (07/08/13 03:49 PM)
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PhosCap
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: BBBlack]
#18530308 - 07/08/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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if the mycellium is the dominant organism then bacterial invaders shouldn't pose a problem. you may have a few spots within the substrate that the myc cannot take over. Its a potential possibility.
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BBBlack
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: PhosCap]
#18530578 - 07/08/13 05:00 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
phosi said:
if the mycellium is the dominant organism then bacterial invaders shouldn't pose a problem. you may have a few spots within the substrate that the myc cannot take over. Its a potential possibility.
Makes much sense, thank you.
And thanks very, very much to all the others who have posted in this thread. It been a great help so far.
One thing I've noticed, and it could just be a coincidence, but after having upped the amount of misting these past couple days, and focusing on the edges as well as the middle area of the substrate, new pins seem to be popping up in that middle area. This possibly hints at the fact that my substrate was indeed low on moisture.
Going to keep misting as much as possible, while staying cautious of over saturation. In addition to those middle pins appearing after increasing the amount of misting, the growth of all the pins in the tub seems to have sped up. Could just be my imagination, but my gut tells me they're moving a little quicker now.
Thanks again to all. Feel free to add anything else that you feel may be of some value - I'm still learning!
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Mad Season
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: BBBlack]
#18530641 - 07/08/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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I understand that evaporation may be a pinning trigger but seriously humidity seems to be my pinning trigger. If there's side pins it's because there's not enough humidity on the surface. That's why we made the wax paper and bubble wrap tek. Never over fan/over dy the substrate. Mushrooms just LOVE water and humidity.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: Mad Season]
#18530801 - 07/08/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Exactly. We want humidity and air exchange. Evaporation is a pinning trigger, but that moisture must be replaced to prevent the substrate from drying out.
RR
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BBBlack
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#18530888 - 07/08/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said:
I understand that evaporation may be a pinning trigger but seriously humidity seems to be my pinning trigger. If there's side pins it's because there's not enough humidity on the surface. That's why we made the wax paper and bubble wrap tek. Never over fan/over dy the substrate. Mushrooms just LOVE water and humidity.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Exactly. We want humidity and air exchange. Evaporation is a pinning trigger, but that moisture must be replaced to prevent the substrate from drying out.
RR
Understood.
Spent most of today experimenting, and have come to this exact conclusion. My sub was dried out due to too much fanning, and although humidity wasn't low, the excess fanning didn't allow the moisture to be replaced or remain long enough to be of proper benefit to the mushrooms' growth.
I'm definitely not imagining the surge of growth in my pins, and it was not a coincidence that it occurred as I was misting more and providing less FAE. I've found a good placement for my fan that keeps things moist but fresh in the tub.
As for the early cap opening of the pins, I think it's fair to say there was a lack of water. I'm also thinking that some of it is due to mutation, as many of the prematurely opening caps display the lack of a veil which I am understanding to be a mutation in of itself. So perhaps this was a combination of not enough moisture and some first-flush mutation.
Hoping my increase in misting will allow the pins that haven't yet opened their caps (there are very, very many - far more than ones that have opened) to stay that way and mature in a normal manner. If not, there are more flushes on their way, so we're looking good at this point.
Extremely grateful for all this useful information provided by my fellow growers.
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Mad Season
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: BBBlack]
#18531915 - 07/08/13 09:47 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post pics of mature fruits. Even mutations are beautiful  congratulations on making it this far
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Gretchenmeister
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Re: Caps opening prematurely due to over or under watering - how to tell which? [Re: Mad Season]
#18532128 - 07/08/13 10:33 PM (10 years, 9 months ago) |
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Really... transpiration of gasses from the substrate is a trigger. Yes H2O as a gas evaporates from the surface of the myc, but saying that evaporation of water is a trigger kinda bugs me for technical purposes haha.
Monotubs were originally designed as a "set and forget" set up. It boggles me why an ultrasonic is being utilized as the main source of humidity. Three inches of bulk sub, especially manure based, should be sufficient to sustain the humidity in a mono of your size. If your holes are properly placed then heavy co2 gasses will be passively filtered out your bottom air holes, if you have proper filter material on them, humidity should be mostly retained in your fc.
If the middle/center is getting pooling on it from droplets falling off the lid...elevate one end of the mono with a book or something...so the droplets slide to the side of the lid and down the edge of the tub, back to the bottom where they can be reabsorbed by the tub.
Some people will argue that condensation inside your tub is not an indicator of humidity. I will agree except I will say total lack of any visible condensation inside your fc is a good indication the rH is too low. You do after all have a green house effect going on which in turn fuels its own "water cycle". Remember 4th grade science?
You refer to the project as a "mini mono", but it looks like bulk in a sgfc to me. Monos have a few larger filter covered holes , rather than many small unfiltered ones.
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