Home | Community | Message Board


Azarius
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Culinary Arts, Gardening and Brewing

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
Offlinelosfreddy
Composter
Male


Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 4,027
Last seen: 13 minutes, 25 seconds
moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't?
    #15942817 - 03/13/12 06:22 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

can anyone explain y moonshine allegedly has methanol, but y beer doesn't. i don't get it. its basically the same process, just one isn't distilled. or is moonshine having methanol a myth? plan to make whiskey soon


--------------------
Quit reading my mind!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,261
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: losfreddy]
    #15942873 - 03/13/12 06:37 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

You are correct. There isn't much methanol in moonshine. The fermentation process always produces some methanol; this happens in beer and wine too. When you distill this stuff, the methanol ends up in the end product, but the ratio between ethanol and methanol won't change significantly. Unless of course you actually discard the methanol (which is the first sizable fraction that comes out during the distillation); then you actually end up with less methanol relative to the ethanol content.

I understand that some fermentation processes result in more methanol than usual. I think the risks of home-made grappa (made by fermenting the residue, i.e. grape skins and pips, after making certain Italian wines with the same grapes) are related to this, but I'm not entirely sure.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEagle
Horney Biker
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 179
Loc: USA
Last seen: 8 months, 12 days
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: koraks]
    #15945278 - 03/14/12 09:26 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

I agree with kor. You get the methanol cross over thru the distilation process. But, if the cuts are done properly there will be little left in the end product. You can find a ton of info HERE. I believe I can post this if not please remove and accept my apologies.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,182
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: losfreddy]
    #15945433 - 03/14/12 10:49 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Methanol comes from the yeast fermenting the pectin that is present in all fruit based drinks...the lack of pectin in beer probably results in far less methanol being produced.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineYacub
Psychedelic Redneck
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/05/09
Posts: 983
Loc: NOLA Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: trendal]
    #15960412 - 03/17/12 07:43 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Moonshine should have no methanol if it's made right. Methanol is the first thing out the still, you collect it and toss it out.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelosfreddy
Composter
Male


Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 4,027
Last seen: 13 minutes, 25 seconds
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: Yacub]
    #15962312 - 03/18/12 05:09 AM (1 year, 2 months ago)

but how to tell the difference? can u separate in a separatory funnel?


--------------------
Quit reading my mind!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,261
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: losfreddy]
    #15962901 - 03/18/12 12:35 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

Nope. There's no practical way of separating them, apart from collecting the first fraction (hoping you get most of the methanol and none of the ethanol) and discarding it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelosfreddy
Composter
Male


Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 4,027
Last seen: 13 minutes, 25 seconds
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: koraks]
    #15971117 - 03/20/12 12:03 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

I have a jar of something called shine on georgia moon corn whiskey.  Its bottled in a mason jar and two lables stuck on the front and back.  Looks like it was stilled at a mom and pop shop somewhere.  I tried some of this and has a weirdish taste and smell not like regular whiskey.  I think prehaps what im tasting is part methanol. IDK.  Im pretty sure theyre trying to say its a moonshine-like liquor without actually calling it that.



--------------------
Quit reading my mind!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,261
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: losfreddy]
    #15972545 - 03/20/12 06:17 PM (1 year, 2 months ago)

You can't distinguish methanol from ethanol by taste or smell, so I doubt that's what you're experiencing. I wouldn't know how to find out how much methanol is in there apart from running chromatography on it or performing a pretty accurate fractional distillation, but both means aren't really worthwhile for just one jar. If you believe there might be methanol in there, I'd use that stuff for cleaning purposes or something.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinepgnet
Dude
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/10/10
Posts: 115
Loc: rightcheer Flag
Last seen: 10 days, 17 hours
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: losfreddy]
    #16011120 - 03/28/12 11:46 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

losfreddy said:
I have a jar of something called shine on georgia moon corn whiskey.  Its bottled in a mason jar and two lables stuck on the front and back.  Looks like it was stilled at a mom and pop shop somewhere.  I tried some of this and has a weirdish taste and smell not like regular whiskey.  I think prehaps what im tasting is part methanol. IDK.  Im pretty sure theyre trying to say its a moonshine-like liquor without actually calling it that.





Moonshine is not entirely unlike commercial whiskey. all of it come outta the still clear. then it is aged flavored or whatever. That corn likker is made of corn mash. Most whiskeys begin with various grains. all have unique odor and flavors. Ive seen and tasted many fresh out of the still concoctions and they all have there own smells and flavors. Methanol and a lot of other chemicals vaporize at temperatures a little lower than ethanol and water. so they come out first. toss them out or degrease the driveway. the rest is white lightnin. the link posted above is the absolute best place to get info and guidance. peace.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledaussaulit
Forgetful

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,882
Loc: Earth
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: losfreddy]
    #16012509 - 03/29/12 09:59 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

losfreddy said:
can anyone explain y moonshine allegedly has methanol, but y beer doesn't. i don't get it. its basically the same process, just one isn't distilled. or is moonshine having methanol a myth? plan to make whiskey soon



I don't know where these rumors get started, but I hear that BS all the time. I have yet to find the formula of how methanol is produced by fermentation. Can anyone show me the formula?

The predominant reason why moonshine back in the early 1900s and even today in homemade vodka's in Russia is because someone either purposely added methanol or it was distilled improperly. When I say distilled improperly, I don't mean that the distiller didn't toss out the so called "heads" and "tails", but they were using equipment such as car radiators.
What is in car radiators? Antifreeze.
What is antifreeze made of? Methanol, ethylene glycol, and other things.

I've seen this come up so many god damn times, and the holy "bible" of this is some uncited website created by some random guy.


Edited by daussaulit (03/29/12 10:15 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblenaumM
 User Gallery


Registered: 10/10/07
Posts: 3,052
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: losfreddy]
    #16057090 - 04/07/12 03:36 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Methanol is colorless and odorless.

Methanol is a natural by-product of your waste elimination process. Yes, your body makes methanol. Like with all chemicals it is dose that counts.

Methanol in alcohol is primarily from the enzymatic breakdown of pectin like trendal said. If a pectinase was added to a must or wash the methanol concentration/content will be higher due to the additional breakdown of pectin. Pectinase addition is increasingly common and not limited to the alcoholic beverage industry. Orange juice contains a fair amount of methanol because pectinase is used in its commercial production. I'd imagine commercial apple juice also contains a good deal of methanol. Don't forget that methanol is one of the byproducts of aspartame metabolism as well.

Methanol is toxic because it is metabolized into formaldehyde by alcohol dehydrogenase and then to formic acid/formate (by formaldehyde dehydrogenase) which our bodies have a lot of trouble clearing via folate dependent reactions. It's this last step that is the slow step and is the reason why methanol is rather toxic to primates. Other species don't nearly have enough trouble eliminating formic acid and a rat for example could drink you under the table in terms of methanol consumption. Formic acid is bad stuff. It's the chemical that causes the painful reaction that occurs when you are bitten by fire ants, but in the major danger of its presence as a byproduct of the metabolism of methanol is metabolic acidosis and its neuronal toxicity (this is why you go blind).

Fortunately ethanol has a higher affinity for alcohol dehydrogenase than methanol so ethanol is somewhat protective when both methanol and ethanol are consumed simultaneously like they are in alcoholic beverages because ethanol acts as a competitive inhibitor for the first step of metabolism which means there is less free formaldehyde/formic acid available to wreck havoc on your body. Additionally some methanol is excreted unchanged so the competitive inhibition of alcohol dehydrogenase also allows for clearance of some of the methanol before it is metabolized into formaldehyde and then formic acid/formate.

There are several studies where GC/MS was used to determine the methanol content of commercial alcoholic beverages. Here are the results of one:

Quote:

6-27 mg/litre in beer
96-321 mg/litre in wines
10-220 mg/litre in distilled spirits




So yes beer has the lowest concentration of methanol as would be expected. As for wine and distilled spirits you can see the concentration really depends on the sample which will depend on the fermentation substrate and conditions.

It's hard to say where acute methanol toxicity becomes an issue in humans. I've heard the minimum untreated lethal dose is somewhere between 300-1000 mg/kg, but apparently our individual metabolisms play a large role and there is one documented case of a lethal dose of ~100 mg/kg. Those values are without the protective effect of ethanol. So considering the protective effect of alcohol and the number of unaffected alcoholics in countries where fruit liquors and wines are the drinks of choice it's pretty clear that acute methanol poisoning from the consumption of alcoholic beverages is really not a concern. The toxic effects of ethanol would be very apparent before I reached a toxic dose of methanol from consumption of beverages with even the maximum concentrations of methanol in the above study.

The real issue with methanol poisoning is the adulteration of alcoholic beverages with pure methanol in order to make a quick buck or for political purposes.

The use of car radiators is an issue with moonshine, but not because of methanol contamination. The issue with using car radiators is that they contain lead which can be leached by distillation vapors; moonshine has been linked to cases of lead poisoning for exactly this reason.

The only other issue I could imagine is someone drinking a large amount of saved fores aka. the fraction containing the most methanol that most people toss, but even then I'd imagine that wouldn't be enough to cause a case of acute methanol poisoning. But it's a good reminder of why you should always label your fores jars as poison if you save the fores for cleaning purposes.

There are other volatile compounds like acetone, ethyl acetate, butanol, hexanol, hexanal, etc. that are formed during fermentation and come off before the hearts which can cause headaches, but these are also present in beer and wine. Clean fermentation and proper distillation will yield the purest ethanol hands down.

For more than you'd ever want to know about methanol:
hxxp://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc196.htm


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledaussaulit
Forgetful

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,882
Loc: Earth
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: naum]
    #16125558 - 04/22/12 08:46 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Here is an article detailing the deliberate poisoning of alcoholic beverages by the US government during Prohibition.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2010/02/the_chemists_war.single.html
Quote:

It was Christmas Eve 1926, the streets aglitter with snow and lights, when the man afraid of Santa Claus stumbled into the emergency room at New York City's Bellevue Hospital. He was flushed, gasping with fear: Santa Claus, he kept telling the nurses, was just behind him, wielding a baseball bat.


Before hospital staff realized how sick he was—the alcohol-induced hallucination was just a symptom—the man died. So did another holiday partygoer. And another. As dusk fell on Christmas, the hospital staff tallied up more than 60 people made desperately ill by alcohol and eight dead from it. Within the next two days, yet another 23 people died in the city from celebrating the season.


Doctors were accustomed to alcohol poisoning by then, the routine of life in the Prohibition era. The bootlegged whiskies and so-called gins often made people sick. The liquor produced in hidden stills frequently came tainted with metals and other impurities. But this outbreak was bizarrely different. The deaths, as investigators would shortly realize, came courtesy of the U.S. government.


Frustrated that people continued to consume so much alcohol even after it was banned, federal officials had decided to try a different kind of enforcement. They ordered the poisoning of industrial alcohols manufactured in the United States, products regularly stolen by bootleggers and resold as drinkable spirits. The idea was to scare people into giving up illicit drinking. Instead, by the time Prohibition ended in 1933, the federal poisoning program, by some estimates, had killed at least 10,000 people.


Although mostly forgotten today, the "chemist's war of Prohibition" remains one of the strangest and most deadly decisions in American law-enforcement history. As one of its most outspoken opponents, Charles Norris, the chief medical examiner of New York City during the 1920s, liked to say, it was "our national experiment in extermination." Poisonous alcohol still kills—16 people died just this month after drinking lethal booze in Indonesia, where bootleggers make their own brews to avoid steep taxes—but that's due to unscrupulous businessmen rather than government order.


I learned of the federal poisoning program while researching my new book, The Poisoner's Handbook, which is set in jazz-age New York. My first reaction was that I must have gotten it wrong. "I never heard that the government poisoned people during Prohibition, did you?" I kept saying to friends, family members, colleagues.


I did, however, remember the U.S. government's controversial decision in the 1970s to spray Mexican marijuana fields with Paraquat, an herbicide. Its use was primarily intended to destroy crops, but government officials also insisted that awareness of the toxin would deter marijuana smokers. They echoed the official position of the 1920s—if some citizens ended up poisoned, well, they'd brought it upon themselves. Although Paraquat wasn't really all that toxic, the outcry forced the government to drop the plan. Still, the incident created an unsurprising lack of trust in government motives, which reveals itself in the occasional rumors circulating today that federal agencies, such as the CIA, mix poison into the illegal drug supply.


During Prohibition, however, an official sense of higher purpose kept the poisoning program in place. As the Chicago Tribune editorialized in 1927: "Normally, no American government would engage in such business. … It is only in the curious fanaticism of Prohibition that any means, however barbarous, are considered justified." Others, however, accused lawmakers opposed to the poisoning plan of being in cahoots with criminals and argued that bootleggers and their law-breaking alcoholic customers deserved no sympathy. "Must Uncle Sam guarantee safety first for souses?" asked Nebraska's Omaha Bee.


The  saga began with ratification of the 18th Amendment, which banned the manufacture, sale, or transportation of alcoholic beverages in the United States. * High-minded crusaders and anti-alcohol organizations had helped push the amendment through in 1919, playing on fears of moral decay in a country just emerging from war. The Volstead Act, spelling out the rules for enforcement, passed shortly later, and Prohibition itself went into effect on Jan. 1, 1920.


But people continued to drink—and in large quantities. Alcoholism rates soared during the 1920s; insurance companies charted the increase at more than 300 more percent. Speakeasies promptly opened for business. By the decade's end, some 30,000 existed in New York City alone. Street gangs grew into bootlegging empires built on smuggling, stealing, and manufacturing illegal alcohol. The country's defiant response to the new laws shocked those who sincerely (and naively) believed that the amendment would usher in a new era of upright behavior.

Rigorous enforcement had managed to slow the smuggling of alcohol from Canada and other countries. But crime syndicates responded by stealing massive quantities of industrial alcohol—used in paints and solvents, fuels and medical supplies—and redistilling it to make it potable.


Well, sort of. Industrial alcohol is basically grain alcohol with some unpleasant chemicals mixed in to render it undrinkable. The U.S. government started requiring this "denaturing" process in 1906 for manufacturers who wanted to avoid the taxes levied on potable spirits. The U.S. Treasury Department, charged with overseeing alcohol enforcement, estimated that by the mid-1920s, some 60 million gallons of industrial alcohol were stolen annually to supply the country's drinkers. In response, in 1926, President Calvin Coolidge's government decided to turn to chemistry as an enforcement tool. Some 70 denaturing formulas existed by the 1920s. Most simply added poisonous methyl alcohol into the mix. Others used bitter-tasting compounds that were less lethal, designed to make the alcohol taste so awful that it became undrinkable.


To sell the stolen industrial alcohol, the liquor syndicates employed chemists to "renature" the products, returning them to a drinkable state. The bootleggers paid their chemists a lot more than the government did, and they excelled at their job. Stolen and redistilled alcohol became the primary source of liquor in the country. So federal officials ordered manufacturers to make their products far more deadly.


By mid-1927, the new denaturing formulas included some notable poisons—kerosene and brucine (a plant alkaloid closely related to strychnine), gasoline, benzene, cadmium, iodine, zinc, mercury salts, nicotine, ether, formaldehyde, chloroform, camphor, carbolic acid, quinine, and acetone. The Treasury Department also demanded more methyl alcohol be added—up to 10 percent of total product. It was the last that proved most deadly.


The results were immediate, starting with that horrific holiday body count in the closing days of 1926. Public health officials responded with shock. "The government knows it is not stopping drinking by putting poison in alcohol," New York City medical examiner Charles Norris said at a hastily organized press conference. "[Y]et it continues its poisoning processes, heedless of the fact that people determined to drink are daily absorbing that poison. Knowing this to be true, the United States government must be charged with the moral responsibility for the deaths that poisoned liquor causes, although it cannot be held legally responsible."


His department issued warnings to citizens, detailing the dangers in whiskey circulating in the city: "[P]ractically all the liquor that is sold in New York today is toxic," read one 1928 alert. He publicized every death by alcohol poisoning. He assigned his toxicologist, Alexander Gettler, to analyze confiscated whiskey for poisons—that long list of toxic materials I cited came in part from studies done by the New York City medical examiner's office.


Norris also condemned the federal program for its disproportionate effect on the country's poorest residents. Wealthy people, he pointed out, could afford the best whiskey available. Most of those sickened and dying were those "who cannot afford expensive protection and deal in low grade stuff."


And the numbers were not trivial. In 1926, in New York City, 1,200 were sickened by poisonous alcohol; 400 died. The following year, deaths climbed to 700. These numbers were repeated in cities around the country as public-health officials nationwide joined in the angry clamor. Furious anti-Prohibition legislators pushed for a halt in the use of lethal chemistry. "Only one possessing the instincts of a wild beast would desire to kill or make blind the man who takes a drink of liquor, even if he purchased it from one violating the Prohibition statutes," proclaimed Sen. James Reed of Missouri.


Officially, the special denaturing program ended only once the 18th Amendment was repealed in December 1933. But the chemist's war itself faded away before then. Slowly, government officials quit talking about it. And when Prohibition ended and good grain whiskey reappeared, it was almost as if the craziness of Prohibition—and the poisonous measures taken to enforce it—had never quite happened.




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLarrythescaryrex
teardrop on the fire


Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 10,720
Loc: further down the spiral
Last seen: 11 days, 9 hours
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: daussaulit]
    #16125577 - 04/22/12 08:51 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

there are different forms of alcohol and some are harmful. I doubt if you know what your doing your in any danger.


--------------------
Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineWiccan_SeekerA
gold foil hat admin
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 33,618
Loc: Virgo Supercluster (or b...
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 minutes
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: losfreddy]
    #16125663 - 04/22/12 09:10 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Yeast doesnt produce methanol, but it frees it from molecules such as pectin. That way if you ferment for instance apples, the fermented liquid has methanol - but not more than the body frees from the apples themselves, and if you distill it the methanol concentrates, but not more than in proportion.

If you take a beer or a wine and distill it, the destillate is healthier than the starting alcohol, because it is purified, Anyone who ever distilled a ferment can vouch for how putrid the leftover mash smells compared to the destillate - and all those yeast byproducts add to the hangover.

Try it, buy 4 bottles of beer and distill off 1 bottle. Smell and taste what crap remains if you take the good stuff (alcohol and light volatiles) out.

Its good for you! *slams down a gulp of moonshine* :ahahaha:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledemiu5
broccolilocks
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 38,158
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: moonshine has methanol but beer doesn't? [Re: losfreddy]
    #16127428 - 04/23/12 08:34 AM (1 year, 30 days ago)

Quote:

losfreddy said:
I have a jar of something called shine on georgia moon corn whiskey.  Its bottled in a mason jar and two lables stuck on the front and back.  Looks like it was stilled at a mom and pop shop somewhere.  I tried some of this and has a weirdish taste and smell not like regular whiskey.  I think prehaps what im tasting is part methanol. IDK.  Im pretty sure theyre trying to say its a moonshine-like liquor without actually calling it that.








that stuff is crap

nothing like real moonshine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars

General Interest >> Culinary Arts, Gardening and Brewing

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Mushroom Beer
( 1 2 all )
sboss01 8,491 20 08/06/05 12:44 PM
by goobler
* Ginger Beer.. OMG
( 1 2 all )
Enthrall 2,031 28 04/08/10 10:18 PM
by Enthrall
* Moonshine .. PooPs 1,717 11 09/04/03 11:18 PM
by Anonymous
* How them thar rednecks and hillbillys distilled their own moonshine from corn during the Prohibition Wiccan_SeekerA 8,925 11 07/05/07 07:51 PM
by Zepplin
* Mad Cappers Moonshine Tek
( 1 2 3 all )
mad capper 6,915 56 02/14/13 01:25 PM
by odbsmydog
* Distilling your own alcohol, solvents or essences -- super-easy kitchen still design!
( 1 2 all )
Wiccan_SeekerA 4,950 22 01/30/07 10:12 PM
by Wiccan_Seeker
* Methanol in beer/wine virusxe 1,628 4 01/29/11 05:36 PM
by Shins
* Methanol poisoning? Almond Flour 412 16 08/04/11 07:58 AM
by Seuss

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: boO, trendal, geokills
2,742 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 0 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2013 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.118 seconds spending 0.002 seconds on 18 queries.