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soldatheero
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Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy 1
#15809652 - 02/14/12 08:25 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Just came across this presentation entitled "No More Secrets" by Laurentian University professor Dr. Michael Persinger . I'm sure most of you are familiar with him as many so-called skeptics refer to his God helmet experiments in order to explain the NDE which IMO does no such thing but that is a different topic.
Although I have yet to watch the video I know he claims to have to have designed an experiment which demonstrates ESP.'
"What we have found is that if you place two different people at a distance and put a circular magnetic field around both, and you make sure they are connected to the same computer so they get the same stimulation, then if you flash a light in one person’s eye the person in the other room receiving just the magnetic field will show changes in their brain as if they saw the flash of light. We think that’s tremendous because it may be the first macro demonstration of a quantum connection, or so-called quantum entanglement. If true, then there’s another way of potential communication that may have physical applications, for example, in space travel.”
This is exciting for me and caught me off guard as IMO it seems to be taboo for a neuro scientist to make such claims. Apparently so does Dr. Pesinger,
"“I think the critical thing about science is to be open-minded. It’s really important to realize that the true subject matter of science is the pursuit of the unknown. Sadly scientists have become extraordinarily group-oriented. Our most typical critics are not are mystic believer types. They are scientists who have a narrow vision of what the world is like.”
Good to see a real truth seeking scientist who isn't confined to scientific dogma.
Is this "solid" evidence of PSI phenomenon?
http://www.dailygrail.com/Mind-Mysteries/2011/5/Michael-Persinger-No-More-Secrets-Telepathy
Quote:
Dr Michael Persinger of Laurentian University quickly became the science darling of skeptics and atheists a decade ago with news of his 'God Helmet', which appeared to show that 'sensed presence' of supernatural entities (and/or 'God') may be simply due to magnetic disturbance of the brain. Since then however, Persinger has not made himself an overly attractive science reference for skeptics as he has been involved with, and claims to have achieved positive results in, experimental parapsychology.
Earlier this year, Persinger gave the following lecture, titled "No More Secrets". In it, he detailed his theories on the connection between magnetic fields and the brain, in particular how this relationship could facilitate telepathy and remote viewing. He notes particular experiments and individuals (Ingo Swann, Sean Harribance) that seem to give evidence supporting his theories, and makes some fairly extraordinary claims which I'm sure will lead to some debate.
I had never seen Persinger lecture before - he's a great presenter, and with his usual suit and pocket watch, and precise mannerisms, makes for a fair caricature of an eccentric scientist. Whether you agree or disagree with his theories and evidence, it's still worth a watch just for some of the oblique insights that he has (e.g. when discussing the minuteness of fields involved, "don't think of 'bigness' as being important, it's the pattern that is important"). A worthy time investment for any science fiction writer...
The lecture is around 36 minutes long, and is followed by almost 20 minutes of questions and answers...
The title of the lecture emerges from the extrapolation of telepathy as a barely understood phenomenon, to a talent that all humans could use to know what was in any other person's brain. What would it be like if there were 'No More Secrets'?
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
Edited by soldatheero (02/14/12 08:25 PM)
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DieCommie
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15809683 - 02/14/12 08:28 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
We think that’s tremendous because it may be the first macro demonstration of a quantum connection, or so-called quantum entanglement.
Not buying that for a second. Im not sure he understands how entanglement works with a statement like this.
It would be nice to see the paper. ??
edit
I had never seen Persinger lecture before - he's a great presenter, and with his usual suit and pocket watch, and precise mannerisms, makes for a fair caricature of an eccentric scientist. Whether you agree or disagree with his theories and evidence, it's still worth a watch just for some of the oblique insights that he has (e.g. when discussing the minuteness of fields involved, "don't think of 'bigness' as being important, it's the pattern that is important"). A worthy time investment for any science fiction writer...
Ha, is this the most flattering article you could find?
Edited by DieCommie (02/14/12 08:34 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero] 1
#15809731 - 02/14/12 08:36 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Is this "solid" evidence of PSI phenomenon?
Short Answer: No.
Longer Answer: Nooooo.
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soldatheero
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: DieCommie]
#15809736 - 02/14/12 08:37 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Well either way it's not about flattery or the way things seem right its about the facts. So if you really wan't to know lets find some papers and sort it out.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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DieCommie
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15809752 - 02/14/12 08:39 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
So if you really wan't to know lets find some papers and sort it out.
Ha, Im not looking for your evidence for you.
Post up the papers. Lets hear some technical descriptions of the experiment. Get into the specifics.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15809764 - 02/14/12 08:41 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Good to see a real truth seeking scientist who isn't confined to scientific dogma.
You applaud only because it supports your fantasy. How much would you care to wager this does not play out and dies?
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave



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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: DieCommie]
#15809791 - 02/14/12 08:44 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ha, Im not looking for your evidence for you.
After nine years here you should know how 'believer research' works.
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Diploid
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15809858 - 02/14/12 08:53 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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A YouTube video means nothing. There's one floating around right now of a Wooly Mammoth that turned out to be a hoax.
And quantum entanglement? WTF does that have to do with the price of tea? Nothing in that video has anything whatever to do with entanglement. Nothing at all. That this is even brought up points to a deep ignorance of baby-level physics and makes me wonder what else the presenter is deeply ignorant of.
How about instead of a meaningless video, you give us a link to the peer-reviewed paper where the experimental protocol and the results were published. What, you don't have one? Awww, what a surprise.
I'm sure most of you are familiar with him as many so-called skeptics refer to his God helmet experiments
Yeah, I happen to be familiar with this. I'm also familiar with the fact that the experimental protocol was flawed. For one thing, it was not properly double-blinded and so there was no guard against either deliberate cheating or inadvertent "cluing in" of the researcher who knew the results ahead of time due to the lack of blinding.
Furthermore, none of this guys "results" have been independently reproduced. If this Earth-shaking result had any truth to it, there would be an avalanche of scientists rushing to reproduce it and become the founders of a whole new branch of scientific inquiry. That hasn't happened because the few who've tried find that when proper double-blinding is enforced, the test fails. What does that tell us?
You believers keep tossing out flawed research, improper methodology, lack of peer review, and unreplicated experiments and then you wonder why we doubt all your claims. What would you say if your bank told you your account balance is zero, but they can't give you a proper statement to show the transactions that drained the account. Would you smile and go on your way or would you say fuck no, I don't buy it for one second?
The gullibility of people who want this to be true would be funny if it wasn't so god damned depressing that people are so easily duped. Humans are doomed.
-------------------- Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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soldatheero
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: OrgoneConclusion] 1
#15809859 - 02/14/12 08:53 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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' Proposed Experiments to Determine if There is a Connection Between Biological Nonlocality and Consciousness'
http://redshift.vif.com/JournalFiles/V08NO4PDF/V08N4THA.PDF
Excerpt
Quote:
Grinberg-Zylberbaum EPR Experiment Experiments were undertaken 30 years later by Grinberg- Zylberbaum, under much more stringent conditions, to determine if nonlocal correlations might occur at complex levels such as the human brain [9]. These experiments tested the possibility of the existence of a transference of specific signals between two brains, in a nonclassical fashion. Unrelated pairs of subjects were allowed to meditate together until their brains’ EEGs displayed phase coherence. Approximately 25% of the subjects attained what they called quantum correlation or direct communication. The subjects were put into Faraday chambers attached to EEGs. One of the subjects was stimulated by a series of unpatterned flashes of light from a photostimulator, which resulted in an evoked potential being elicited. An evoked potential is a normal electrophysiological brain response produced by a sensory stimulus [10]. When the stimulated subjects showed a distinct evoked potential, similar potentials were found in 25% of the nonstimulated subjects, which they called transferred potentials. With the use of photostimulation they were able to achieve a much more distinct and replicable evoked potential than that obtained by merely closing one’s eyes. While both techniques revealed the same striking similarity regarding the brain waves being in phase coherence, in neither case was there any transference of conscious subjective experience between the subjects. I have proposed that in addition to using subjects who have meditated together, that we can also rely upon identical twins and Apeiron, Vol. 8, No. 4, October 2001 57 © 2001 C. Roy Keys Inc. other familial combinations whose brain waves already appear to be in phase coherence due to genetic factors [11]. There is a large body of literature dealing with not only the EEGs of identical twins but, fraternal twins, and mother/son, father/daughter, etc. combinations [12-16]. In addition, it appears that unrelated subjects may possess varying degrees of phase coherence as a result of certain universal genetic factors and empathy. Analysis of both the Duane-Behrendt and Grinberg-Zylberbaum research, appears to reveal that controllable biological quantum nonlocality may have been achieved at that time [17].
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15809883 - 02/14/12 08:57 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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So is the short answer that you are not willing to make a wager on the veracity of this 'research'?
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soldatheero
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#15809948 - 02/14/12 09:10 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Short Answer: No.
Longer Answer: Nooooo.
So obviously you have no intention of reviewing his research because you already know the claim cannot possibly be true. Why exactly is it impossible?
Non-locality at the quantum level should be impossible but has been confirmed. Like I said I just stumbled upon this video myself so I do not know if it is solid or not but I am certainly intrigued enough to find out. You on the other hand believe there is some scientific fact which makes it an impossibility because your irrationally close minded.
Just because there is no peer reviewed paper as of yet does not mean his experiments are invalid.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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DieCommie
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15809954 - 02/14/12 09:11 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Non-locality at the quantum level should be impossible but has been confirmed.
Why should it be impossible?
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Diploid
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15810029 - 02/14/12 09:23 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Non-locality at the quantum level should be impossible
Who says? You're making shit up, then shooting it down to support your argument. That's called a strawman fallacy.
You on the other hand believe there is some scientific fact which makes it an impossibility
The only one in this thread who's used the word "impossible" is you.
Just because there is no peer reviewed paper as of yet does not mean his experiments are invalid
But it does mean his claims are suspect. If they were valid, there would be not only peer reviewed papers, but CNN and newspaper stories, radio stories, interviews on Oprah, and TONS of private funding looking to get in on the ground floor of a monumental new discovery and the profits it could generate.
But all we have is a YouTube video on par with another lolcat that looks like Hitler.
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soldatheero
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: Diploid]
#15810059 - 02/14/12 09:29 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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It should be impossible because particles/photons/electrons once entangled effect one another instantaneously regardless of the distance between them, they can be on opposite sides of the universe and respond instantly, as if the space/distance is no factor. It's impossible to explain in terms of Newtonian mechanics because the causal link between them should have to travel through space and time and therefore take time.
Non-locality was a very difficult thing for many physicists to accept and still is (despite experimental evidence), I believe Einstein for instance would not accept it and termed it "spooky action at a distance".
I'm not just "making shit up" lmao
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DieCommie
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15810092 - 02/14/12 09:36 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Non-locality was a very difficult thing for many physicists to accept and still is
Still is? No way, not many.
Entanglement/Spooky action at a distance is only impossible to those who cant believe that the universe acts non-intuitively (like Einstein). Its completely consistent with other theories. It often naively thought to be inconsistent with relativity, but its not.
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soldatheero
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: DieCommie]
#15810124 - 02/14/12 09:43 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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non-intuitively? Consistent with what theories specifically? Of course it is consistent with the theories seeing as those theories are built to explain it.
Anyway I agree it is definitely accepted by the majority of physicists as has been shown experimentally but the point is it has yet to be understood.
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Diploid
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15810152 - 02/14/12 09:48 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not just "making shit up"
Yes you are. Right here:
Quote:
Non-locality at the quantum level should be impossible
You just made that up. It's not true. You just think it is because you apparently haven't studied physics even at the high school level. What's more, you use your misunderstanding to support your erroneous claims and you don't seem to even realize it.
It should be impossible because particles/photons/electrons once entangled effect one another instantaneously regardless of the distance between them
So what? Why should that be impossible? Once again, you seem to be misconstruing things due to a lack of basic physics education to make statements that are patently false and you're blithely unaware of how utterly wrong those statements are.
Perhaps you mean "unintuitive" instead of "impossible". In that case you'd be right, but there's a big difference.
Edit: damn, DC keeps beating me to the punch.
-------------------- Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
Edited by Diploid (02/14/12 09:50 PM)
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DieCommie
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15810159 - 02/14/12 09:51 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Consistent with what theories specifically?
Relativity, mechanics, electromagnetic theory - all of them. The only thing that claims it is 'impossible' is peoples appeal to intuition.
What about it has yet to be understood? It is described and predicted by theory. All experiments are consistent with the theory (in this regard). I suspect you mean understood intuitively? That will likely never happen. There is no reason to expect the universe to behave intuitively.
More to the point, quantum entanglement is not a valid candidate for a physical mechanism behind this so called 'psi'. If a mechanism is to be proposed it must be different than entanglement. Entanglement in no way allows information to be shared, which most physicists know but this Neuroscientist apparently does not...
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soldatheero
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: Diploid]
#15810359 - 02/14/12 10:33 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ou just made that up. It's not true. You just think it is because you apparently haven't studied physics even at the high school level. What's more, you use your misunderstanding to support your erroneous claims and you don't seem to even realize it.
Well I meant it should be impossible because it means information is traveling faster than the speed of light and I implied it should be impossible from a Newtonian point of view. I took eleven twelve physics at the university level.
If it's all so simple why was the discovery of non-locality so controversial? such as the disagreements between Einstein and Bohr on it's implications. Obviously it is not impossible but the point is it was unexpected, do u not agree?
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soldatheero
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Re: Prominent Neuroscientist Claims Positive Results for Telepathy [Re: soldatheero]
#15810376 - 02/14/12 10:36 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
More to the point, quantum entanglement is not a valid candidate for a physical mechanism behind this so called 'psi'. If a mechanism is to be proposed it must be different than entanglement. Entanglement in no way allows information to be shared, which most physicists know but this Neuroscientist apparently does not...
Can you elaborate what exactly are you defining as "information"? there is a causal link and you can induce a change in one particle to another without traveling through space-time but by the "field" how does that not qualify as an exchange of "information". Wouldn't this make sense for psi? two brains interlinked and the space between them is irrelevant because the information is exchanged via the field but not space time?
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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