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 somaholiday
Stranger
Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 444
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
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 You cant love another person... 
#15614237 - 01/04/12 10:45 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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...unless you love youself
Then how is it that we become a person that can love in the first place?
Just wondering and interested in my fellow shroomers thoughts.
Tell me things.
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The man of science is a poor philosopher --- Albert Einstein
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 koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,720
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: somaholiday]  1
#15614287 - 01/04/12 11:05 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Well, I disagree with the statement, so the question you bring up is moot as far as I'm concerned.
Of course you can love another person even if you don't love yourself. But people who don't love themselves can sometimes be awkward or difficult to be around. That doesn't mean love (or a relationship) is automatically impossible. Far from it.
Quote:
somaholiday said:
Then how is it that we become a person that can love in the first place?
Chemical imbalance
tells me who you are
- Steven Wilson
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Anonymous #1
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: koraks]
#15614328 - 01/04/12 11:19 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I've been going through a shitty breakup and it feels like I need to relearn everything I had going for myself before I met her, when I was independent.
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somaholiday
Stranger
Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 444
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: Anonymous #1]
#15614576 - 01/04/12 12:43 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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@koraks --- lol...excellent!...I've always felt a little confused when people say it, as they so often do. How is it we can love at all if we have to love ourselves first, if loving ourselves largely depends upon our socialisation and experiences growing up.
I have also had very positive experiences in a relationship where being in a loving environment has taught me ever such a lot about love...not superfiscially either, what I had learned remained even after the pain of the break up.
I suppose also the whole "loving yourself" thing is not necesarily static either, and, perhaps love in relationships isnt. I suppose we run into problems when we try to systemetise things too much and make judgments. I certainly do.
@1 --- wow, I can feel some very deep sentiments there...it sounds difficult, I think I can see the point you are making. Surely though, you wouldnt have been together for so long if you didnt develop and grow as a person in your relationship, in ways that you can hold on to now you are not in it?
I find myself constantly torn between needing independance and space; and lonelyness....it can be quite suffocating.
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The man of science is a poor philosopher --- Albert Einstein
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VisionaryFlicker
Querulant
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 2,456
Loc: Amsterdam 
Last seen: 4 months, 11 days
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: somaholiday]
#15621574 - 01/05/12 08:13 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I wholeheartedly agree with the OP's hypothesis. Sure one can experience a feeling like Love without loving oneself, but it will be a misguided sentiment. A disturbed admiration upwards, rather than equal love.
The question with these types of sloganesque rules of thumb is; how does one go about loving oneself?
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l'enfer c'est les autres
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Viveka
Architecturer
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 3,427
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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The concept of the self is really an elaborate illusion and the self is this transient thing that is always "there" in some sense and you can point to parts of "it" and think, there it is(or can you?), but you can't actually define the self and it's really an abstract concept.
I think what we think of as self is one layer of identity, where the thing being identified is the totality of our world. Our perception is the parallel concept to self so when we speak of self we may as well speak simply of our perception or awareness. Have you ever awoken suddenly, perhaps on your couch, and identified acutely with your body, perhaps because you were sleeping on your arm, and in a sudden moment of utter strangeness, as your waking consciousness is simultaneously rebooting, exclaim NO!, this is not what I am, and somehow that sentiment relates directly or is the same feeling you experience if you contemplate nothing, or a universe in which you do not exist?
So if the Universe is a thing in which you one day will not exist, yet your awareness is capable of contemplating a world where "you" are not a factor, then the fullness of our identity is not equatable to this "self" everyone is always talking about. So this idea about the self as something we have to be able to love before we can love another, this is no different than exclaiming that we have to be able to love a tree or the way an orgasm feels before we can love another. This sentiment is sort of like an appeal to empathy just as we would say we cannot feel sorrow for another unless we have experienced a similar suffering, but this is not really true and the fact that we can watch someone strike their own hand with a hammer and cringe is evidence of this. Humanity is structured in such a way that the self is not the paramount concept, we are more like a colony of ants than our metathinking would lead us to believe.
We are born with great capacity to love, without any further conditioning required. However, we may have difficulty maintaining a successful relationship if we do not respect our own boundaries and maintain a certain degree of solitude even within an intimate pairing, but this is another topic entirely.
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Throw out your gold teeth and see how they roll
The answer they reveal - life is unreal
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AIRDOG
Surfing Psychodelia
Registered: 10/17/99
Posts: 2,158
Loc: 
Last seen: 19 minutes, 33 seconds
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Quote:
VisionaryFlicker said:
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP's hypothesis. Sure one can experience a feeling like Love without loving oneself, but it will be a misguided sentiment. A disturbed admiration upwards, rather than equal love.
The question with these types of sloganesque rules of thumb is; how does one go about loving oneself?
this is entirely true, you cannot love someone if you dont love yourself... its more of a fear of being alone, interdependency and addiction/obsession to the other person or the sex
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XUL
Optimist
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 7,847
Last seen: 6 hours, 59 minutes
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: AIRDOG] 1
#15634837 - 01/08/12 02:58 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP's hypothesis. Sure one can experience a feeling like Love without loving oneself, but it will be a misguided sentiment. A disturbed admiration upwards, rather than equal love.
Who says? You? That is trivial.
There is no exact answer.There are too many humans on this planet and we are different and compatible in strange ways. Humans are an interesting animal and we do all sorts of crazy things.
If we can be self loathing and love a dog then it is possible to love a human in that same situation.
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VisionaryFlicker
Querulant
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 2,456
Loc: Amsterdam
Last seen: 4 months, 11 days
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: XUL]
#15635331 - 01/08/12 05:05 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
Quote:
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP's hypothesis. Sure one can experience a feeling like Love without loving oneself, but it will be a misguided sentiment. A disturbed admiration upwards, rather than equal love.
Who says? You? That is trivial.
There is no exact answer.There are too many humans on this planet and we are different and compatible in strange ways. Humans are an interesting animal and we do all sorts of crazy things.
If we can be self loathing and love a dog then it is possible to love a human in that same situation.
I am just speaking from my experience.
Oh, and pet-"Love" is such a myth, being pleasantly amused by a cute animal, which can't speak, is not the same as KNOWING another person, and his or her's feelings, and flaws, and loving him or her nonetheless. All you know about your dog is he likes food and licking his balls.
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l'enfer c'est les autres
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,720
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Quote:
VisionaryFlicker said:
Oh, and pet-"Love" is such a myth
No, it isn't a myth. It's a somewhat different kind of love than the love for a friend, for a partner or the love for a child, but I'd call it love nonetheless. It's a deep emotion and an unconditional kind of love that relies on utter dependence of a creature on a person; perhaps pet love is therefore more akin to the love for one's own child than any other form of human-to-human love. I'd go so far as to say that someone who isn't capable of loving a pet, isn't capable of loving another person.
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Anonymous #2
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Quote:
VisionaryFlicker said:
I am just speaking from my experience.
Oh, and pet-"Love" is such a myth, being pleasantly amused by a cute animal, which can't speak, is not the same as KNOWING another person, and his or her's feelings, and flaws, and loving him or her nonetheless. All you know about your dog is he likes food and licking his balls.
If this is a statement about all owners relationships with their dogs...Bulshit. My dog is the best thing that ever happened to me, and I am well insulted! He doesnt pleasently amuse me, he gives me a reason to live ...and while you can refer to many of their behaviours as primal and instinctive, if I asked him to, he'd rip your throat out without a second thought.
Till death do us part.
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VisionaryFlicker
Querulant
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 2,456
Loc: Amsterdam
Last seen: 4 months, 11 days
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: Anonymous #2]
#15635526 - 01/08/12 05:49 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anonymous said:
Quote:
VisionaryFlicker said:
I am just speaking from my experience.
Oh, and pet-"Love" is such a myth, being pleasantly amused by a cute animal, which can't speak, is not the same as KNOWING another person, and his or her's feelings, and flaws, and loving him or her nonetheless. All you know about your dog is he likes food and licking his balls.
If this is a statement about all owners relationships with their dogs...Bulshit. My dog is the best thing that ever happened to me, and I am well insulted! He doesnt pleasently amuse me, he gives me a reason to live ...and while you can refer to many of their behaviours as primal and instinctive, if I asked him to, he'd rip your throat out without a second thought.
Till death do us part.
True, thats cause he's dumb and thinks you're the pack leader. Hell, apparently some dogs think Sezar Milan is their pack leader.
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l'enfer c'est les autres
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Anonymous #2
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Quote:
VisionaryFlicker said:
True, thats cause he's dumb and thinks you're the pack leader. Hell, apparently some dogs think Sezar Milan is their pack leader.
Ohhhh, your just a troll. The spark has gone now. Kind of looks dicky when you intentionally try to wind someone up after they have told you you have offended them ...its a kind of self evidencing character statement you know?
I hope you catch your reflection some time.
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VisionaryFlicker
Querulant
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 2,456
Loc: Amsterdam
Last seen: 4 months, 11 days
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: Anonymous #2]
#15635921 - 01/08/12 07:13 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anonymous said:
Quote:
VisionaryFlicker said:
True, thats cause he's dumb and thinks you're the pack leader. Hell, apparently some dogs think Sezar Milan is their pack leader.
Ohhhh, your just a troll. The spark has gone now. Kind of looks dicky when you intentionally try to wind someone up after they have told you you have offended them ...its a kind of self evidencing character statement you know?
I hope you catch your reflection some time.
You're right, I was being a bit rude and inconsiderate of the evident offense I had already caused. And maybe I was trolling a little bit  My apologies.
Actually, the fact that the dog sees it's owner as the pack leader signifies some sort of non-verbal social relationship going on, which I can actually appreciate. Really, I was only kidding about not recognizing dog-relationships.
Cats however I can't but see as insidious, crafty creatures which merely use humans to harvest food from.
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l'enfer c'est les autres
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,720
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Quote:
Anonymous said:
Ohhhh, your just a troll.
Actually, since you're posting anon in this thread, you're the one who needs to tread carefully. The anon function isn't there to help you feel confident when trying to bash another user. Be warned.
Quote:
VisionaryFlicker said:
Cats however I can't but see as insidious, crafty creatures which merely use humans to harvest food from.
You're missing the point. Regardless of the nature of the creature, a human can genuinely love it.
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somaholiday
Stranger
Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 444
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: koraks]
#15638408 - 01/09/12 05:37 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Thats a good point Koraks, I was thinking about that last night when I turned off actually and was going to fess up anyway, so yeah, it was me.
And wow VF, you are completely redeemed. I wish I hadnt had posted my "upsettness" anon...I was just being a dick worrying about not looking "cool"....edit: which is a character statement about me!
My dog is 14 and getting slower, so it is a sensitive subject. He had my back on numerous occasions when I was living on the street and vulnerable many years ago...so its a touchy subject.
I love him very much, and he is very loyal, and when I get depressed in life (which I often do) he is always there and means ever such a lot to me.
So there, I hope my disclosures somewhat make up for my dick actions.
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The man of science is a poor philosopher --- Albert Einstein
Edited by somaholiday (01/09/12 05:46 AM)
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VisionaryFlicker
Querulant
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 2,456
Loc: Amsterdam
Last seen: 4 months, 11 days
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: koraks]
#15639126 - 01/09/12 11:14 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said:
Quote:
Anonymous said:
Ohhhh, your just a troll.
Actually, since you're posting anon in this thread, you're the one who needs to tread carefully. The anon function isn't there to help you feel confident when trying to bash another user. Be warned.
Quote:
VisionaryFlicker said:
Cats however I can't but see as insidious, crafty creatures which merely use humans to harvest food from.
You're missing the point. Regardless of the nature of the creature, a human can genuinely love it.
*Bam! Unbiased mod strikes, and unhinges the verbal conflict!*
Well, perhaps a human can love the creature, but will the pet Love its owner?
Or does it merely dig the free food and protection? I edge towards the latter Option.
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l'enfer c'est les autres
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 20,720
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Quote:
VisionaryFlicker said:
Well, perhaps a human can love the creature, but will the pet Love its owner?
Does it really matter?
Quote:
Or does it merely dig the free food and protection? I edge towards the latter Option.
No, I think most pets in fact do love their owners. I used to look at it the way you do, but at a certain point, I could no longer explain the behavior of my cats from that view. Currently, the view that best explains my observations is that pets do love their owners.
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Joolz
Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 3,614
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: koraks]
#15642216 - 01/09/12 10:28 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said:
Quote:
VisionaryFlicker said:
Well, perhaps a human can love the creature, but will the pet Love its owner?
Does it really matter?
Quote:
Or does it merely dig the free food and protection? I edge towards the latter Option.
No, I think most pets in fact do love their owners. I used to look at it the way you do, but at a certain point, I could no longer explain the behavior of my cats from that view. Currently, the view that best explains my observations is that pets do love their owners.
As someone who has always been around dogs, I can definitely tell you that animals feel love for their owners. There's no excuse for the way my animals have treated me my entire life.
Not to mention how lovable and fun my friend's pets are.
You can say its based on the comfy bed and the food, but that's just part of it all. A child will love his parents for their love and care but it will also love them because of the materials provided to them by their parents. An animal is the same way. The physical (in this case, food, bed, house, everything you give your pet) has a part in "love" just like the emotional does, regardless of what part of the animal kingdom you come from.
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Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.
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Black_Sunset
Amateur Anesthesiologist
Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1,062
Loc: Somewhere California
Last seen: 7 days, 12 hours
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Re: You cant love another person... [Re: Joolz]
#15646667 - 01/10/12 08:52 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I think the saying "You can't love someone before you love yourself" refers to where you're getting your happiness and love from. You can't truly be happy if you place more love and happiness in another entity than in yourself, because love comes from within yourself.
Yes?No? I'm better at this when I'm on mushrooms
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