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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs....(Update 10/20/11)
    #15182518 - 10/05/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I haven't done cakes since my first grow a few years ago. I really enjoyed growing cakes and decided I wanted to give it another shot. This time tho, I figured I would make it a little bit more interesting.

I have seen plenty of poo cakes and all sorts of concoctions being tested out here on the shroomery, so I decided to try something for myself. I wanted to make something simple, using ingredients I had laying around from previous grows. I decided while I was at it, why not compare the new recipe to the tried and true BRF cake. I made up 10 jars total, five of my recipe, and five of the ole BRF cakes.

My recipe is pretty simple. I added 1.25 cups of rye flour, with 1.25 cups of coir, and 1.25 cups of verm. I mixed these ingredients with 1 cup of water. Before adding the coir, I squeezed as much water out of it as I could with my hands, then put it in a paper towel and squeezed out even more. Afterwords the consistency was that of potting soil, a little damp but crumbled apart easily. It turned out that since the rye flour made it doughy, I added another cup of verm and another half cup of coir. After this the consistency was pretty good so I left it at that. So total, I added 1.25 cups of rye flour, 2.25 cups of verm, and 1.75 cups of coir, with 1 cup water. This made enough for eight jars but I only made up five.

The Coir cakes were made up last evening and inoculated today at lunch at approx 11:30 AM. The BRF cakes were made up this morning and inoculated this evening at approx 6:30 PM. I wanted to use an isolate for the best accuracy. Instead, I decided I wanted to test out a new clone I made from a B+ grow. I made up 2 syringes of B+ clone to LC and inoculated each jar with 2ml each. I understand that an isolate would have been ideal, but I'm confident that the clone will be good enough at telling which substrate is better. Or at least telling which substrate is better for those genetics.

Here are the two contenders, on the left is the current heavy weight champ of the world MR.....BRF!!!! On the right is the challenger MR.....Coir Cake!!!!

                                 

Below is a picture of the two at weigh in, an up close shot if you may.
                                 
                                 

In the picture, It seems like I have the water content pretty even on both of them. The only real difference was the texture. I would say BRF cakes have a sort of, wet sand feel to them. The Rye/Coir cakes have a doughy feel to them and are the consistency of worm castings(like tiny balls or clumps).
If people show interest in the experiment, I will keep this post updated. Also if you wanna take sides, or predict the outcome feel free to post who you think will win(Fastest colonizer and best fruit output).

                          Updated 10/8/11

Its been about 72 hours since the inoculation of the 5 BRF cakes, and the 5 Coir cakes. I started seeing growth on all the jars at around 40-48 hours yesterday. Since my camera sucks, I had to wait till the jars colonized a little more so they would be visible in a picture. I'm pretty happy with the growth on both, I figured using a clone LC and 2ml in each jar I would have pretty fast colonization. I wish I could have got the LC a little farther into the jars, since most of them are colonizing around the middle and top. I am not worried tho, the growth is so fast I doubt the soil drying out or compacting will be a problem. Here are pictures of two jars that will give you an estimate of were the jars are at colonization wise. Its going to be a close race!
                       

On the left is the BRF cake, on the right is the Coir cake. Enjoy!

                          Update 10/9/11

Four days and everything is looking pretty good. The growth has spread a little, but the thickness has increased quite a bit. Most of the jars I would say are still pretty even. There are a few that are definitely a good bit ahead, I suspect that the actual amount of LC inoculated into those jars was greater. Here are pictures of two jars that display the mean growth of both the coir and BRF jars progression on day 4.
                     

Again, the left jar is the BRF, and the right jar is the Coir.

                          Update 10/11/11

It's day six and the jars are continuing to colonize nicely. As you will notice in today's picture, the mycelium is at the stage were it starts to display some nice ropey, rhizomorphic growth. Its still pretty even in the race for the finish. Some jars are lagging behind a bit and some are closing in on 50% colonization. I have noticed that the ones that are growing quicker are the ones that obviously got a bigger shot of LC. I think that for my next cake grow, I will be using 4ml per jar and doing 1ml per hole. With LC adding extra really doesn't mess with the overall moisture of the jars like MS would. I would also like to point out that not all of the coir jars were made up properly, and its starting to show in the colonization speed. For some dumb reason the first two coir jars I made I didn't fill up enough with substrate, so when inoculating, the LC barley made it into the sub. With MS I would definitely have a problem, being as I used the tall jars, but even with that mistake the growth is still quick enough that I should be fine. Only thing is, I probably wont include them in the overall results due to having less substrate and not as good of inoculations. Enough talk here are the pictures.
                     

As usual, the left jar is BRF, and the right jar is Coir. Enjoy!
                     
                          Updated 10/14/11

Its day nine of the experiment and time for another update. The growth has really started to take off as the inoculation points start to meet up. All jars seem to be having no trouble reaching the bottom of the jars and the growth continues to be very speedy. A few of the BRF jars are clearly in the lead, while others are lagging behind a bit. The coir jars growth seems to be pretty even, with all five jars showing about the same amount of growth. They are a little bit behind the two leading BRF jars but a good bit ahead of the straggling BRF jars, so all in all it's a pretty even race. Here are some pictures of the progress.
                     

As always, BRF on left, and Coir on right, Enjoy!

                        Updated 10/20/11

It's day 15 of the experiment and everything is coming along just cherry. The growth on all the jars has really evened out and all the jars are looking about the same. The picture below is of six cakes, three coir, and three brf. I would say they are around 85% complete and none have stalled. The picture shows the uncolonized part of the cakes, and as you will notice everything is pretty even. The myc is starting to colonize the bottom of the cakes which is a good sign, being they are the wrong size jars, the bottom is usually where gravity creates stalling problems. Not only are they colonizing nicely, but there is no sign of any contams.
Now I have a question for you guys here at the shroomery. For those of you who have flipped your cakes in the past, did it really speed up the growth? I am debating on whether to flip them or not...They aren't stalling but if flipping does speed up the growth I may try it. I could even add it to the experiment, flip three of each and see if flipping does indeed speed up growth. Lemme know what you guys think and I'll add it to the list of experiments for this project. Now for the goods, the Coir cakes are on the left, and the BRF on the right, enjoy!
                     

Edited by FuckMeRunnin (10/20/11 08:05 PM)

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OfflineJaffyJaffar
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15182608 - 10/05/11 06:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

gl

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: JaffyJaffar]
    #15182628 - 10/05/11 06:08 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Too bad you used the wrong jars. :shrug:
RR


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15182684 - 10/05/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

If you're stuck using the tall half pints you probably don't want to fill them up all the way or the bottom will never finish colonizing. I had tried something similar to the coir cakes and it didn't turn out so well. In fact it was one of the few times I've ever seen cobweb mold in a jar :ooo: Will be interesting though to see how they turn out.


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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15182701 - 10/05/11 06:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Too bad you used the wrong jars. :shrug:
RR




I forgot to mention that in my post. Yes I looked at 2 weis markets, 2 giants, 2 walmarts, a wegmans, and a target no luck. Ever since those collectors edition wide mouth half pints came out I cant find the old ones anywhere. That being said, I have never had one of those jars stall on me. I had wonderful success the first grow I did and was 12/12 with using those jars. It was also using MS and 1ml per jar. I used 2ml of a clone to LC this time around and am 100% confident it will work. I know your opinion on using those jars, as you have told me before. In my own personal experience they have not failed me yet.

My personal opinion on why people fail using these jars is simple. I think that when people use the wrong size jars it is more of an indicator that they did not follow the instructions. I believe that most failed grows using these jars, are not because of the jars, but because the people didn't follow the other instructions properly either. I think that improper moisture content, and compaction, along with genetics are the number one reason for failed grows.


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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15182729 - 10/05/11 06:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)







All six of the jars above colonized to 100 percent. The pictures above it are proof. I had wonderful yields between 70-90 grams off of each cake first flush. These are from my first grow two years ago.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15182780 - 10/05/11 06:28 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

That being said, I have never had one of those jars stall on me



Curious, what kind of vermiculite did you use? I had always wondered if using the coarse verm could lower the density a bit and help prevent the problem but never tried it.


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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: Kizzle]
    #15182838 - 10/05/11 06:37 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

That being said, I have never had one of those jars stall on me



Curious, what kind of vermiculite did you use? I had always wondered if using the coarse verm could lower the density a bit and help prevent the problem but never tried it.




I used fine verm. I always leave my sub very loose in the jar. I drop the material into the glass, then bump the bottom to even it out and then smooth the top with my finger. So it leaves everything very airy. I think genetics play into it as well. Maybe make it a bit on the dry side so gravity doesn't affect it too much. I really don't know what I did, but I see some people, when there jars are stalling, flip them to allow air to get to the bottom by creating an air pocket. What I've seen it seems to work, but I have had no need to do that myself. I have used "correct" jars before and really never noticed a difference. Hell I didn't even know I was doing anything wrong, till RR yelled at me one day hahaha. In the end all I can go off of is my own experience and in my experience, those jars have never given me the slightest problem.


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Grain Jar to Homemade Mycobag Tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10954174

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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: Kizzle]
    #15182857 - 10/05/11 06:41 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I have the same problem, there are no wide-mouth 8oz jars in my town anywhere. To compensate for the tall jars, I use LCs with .5 cc per hole, so 2 ccs total per jar. To maintain proper moisture, I take an empty syringe and aspirate out 10ccs from my initial 1 cup of 25% coffee 75% water.

This is enough LC to reach the bottom of the jar and they should evenly colonize. I'll go take a pic :laugh:

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Offlinechucklehead
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: Kizzle]
    #15182902 - 10/05/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I'm much prefer course grade.

And to FuckMeRunnin good luck man. 

Pint jars worked great for me many times.  I did have trouble with them at first.  The trick to using these jars was basically to use enough inoculate to reach the bottom of the jar.  So the way I always did that was to inject the bottom hole.  So my lids have four holes in them.  If jar lid was a clock face, I had holes at 12 3 6 and 9.  I always did my injections to the 6 Oclock hole.  Mean while I tilted the jar at a 45 degree angle while holding it.  I then made sure the needle went down against the glass side of the jar.  The inoculate dribbled down the glass all the way to the bottom.  By contrast when I put the injection in 12 oclock the inoculate didn't dribble down the glass but instead would soak into the substrate.

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OfflineKizzle
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15183051 - 10/05/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FuckMeRunnin said:
Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

That being said, I have never had one of those jars stall on me



Curious, what kind of vermiculite did you use? I had always wondered if using the coarse verm could lower the density a bit and help prevent the problem but never tried it.




I used fine verm. I always leave my sub very loose in the jar. I drop the material into the glass, then bump the bottom to even it out and then smooth the top with my finger. So it leaves everything very airy. I think genetics play into it as well. Maybe make it a bit on the dry side so gravity doesn't affect it too much. I really don't know what I did, but I see some people, when there jars are stalling, flip them to allow air to get to the bottom by creating an air pocket. What I've seen it seems to work, but I have had no need to do that myself. I have used "correct" jars before and really never noticed a difference. Hell I didn't even know I was doing anything wrong, till RR yelled at me one day hahaha. In the end all I can go off of is my own experience and in my experience, those jars have never given me the slightest problem.



Hmmm. Something has to be causing the difference. Do your jars colonize the bottom first? I would speculate that there is much better gas exchange to the bottom early on. If that's the case maybe when I was doing cakes my inoculation points should have been further towards the bottom.

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15183068 - 10/05/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FuckMeRunnin said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Too bad you used the wrong jars. :shrug:
RR




I forgot to mention that in my post. Yes I looked at 2 weis markets, 2 giants, 2 walmarts, a wegmans, and a target no luck.




http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3376864&CAWELAID=109378766

ace will deliver to an ace near you for free!

:thumbup:


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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: Kizzle]
    #15183157 - 10/05/11 07:30 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

FuckMeRunnin said:
Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

That being said, I have never had one of those jars stall on me



Curious, what kind of vermiculite did you use? I had always wondered if using the coarse verm could lower the density a bit and help prevent the problem but never tried it.




I used fine verm. I always leave my sub very loose in the jar. I drop the material into the glass, then bump the bottom to even it out and then smooth the top with my finger. So it leaves everything very airy. I think genetics play into it as well. Maybe make it a bit on the dry side so gravity doesn't affect it too much. I really don't know what I did, but I see some people, when there jars are stalling, flip them to allow air to get to the bottom by creating an air pocket. What I've seen it seems to work, but I have had no need to do that myself. I have used "correct" jars before and really never noticed a difference. Hell I didn't even know I was doing anything wrong, till RR yelled at me one day hahaha. In the end all I can go off of is my own experience and in my experience, those jars have never given me the slightest problem.



Hmmm. Something has to be causing the difference. Do your jars colonize the bottom first? I would speculate that there is much better gas exchange to the bottom early on. If that's the case maybe when I was doing cakes my inoculation points should have been further towards the bottom.




If you look at the picture in my one post, you will notice the bottoms were the last thing to colonize. This is were most people run into problems, and there jars stale out. If you do experience staled growth at the bottom of your jars, a lot of people have had great success flipping the jars over. Since the mycelium colonizes the sub and compacts it, by flipping you can get an air gap to form at the bottom and a lot of people notice that the jars start growing rapidly afterwords.

for this go around I made it a point to get the needle as far in as I could and made sure to press quickly to shoot the LC down as far as possible. I really don't think it will matter, since I'm using an LC clone and at 2ml each jar, I'm expecting growth to be pretty quick.

I also think there is a perfect amount of compaction when doing cakes or spawning to bulk. Too much will slow the growth or stale it, and not enough will also slow the growth due to the empty spaces; the mycelium has to waste energy covering. I think people have the tendency to pack the substrate too tightly. When I make substrate according to RR's video, I always have the perfect amount for 5 jars. I think that's a good indication of whether you packed too tight or not tight enough. If you don't have enough for five jars its too tight...If you have left overs its too loose. If I remember correctly my first time I had left overs, so when using tall jars its better to be a little looser then too compact.


--------------------
Grain Jar to Homemade Mycobag Tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10954174

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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15183176 - 10/05/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I posted my tek in a new thread as a reponse to the issues raised in this thread. Let me know what you think.

I wish I had an ace hardware like everyday :frown:

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Offlinepierced074
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15183262 - 10/05/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

would straight coir and brf be usable as substrate in the jars? or is verm a must?


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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: pierced074]
    #15183299 - 10/05/11 07:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pierced074 said:
would straight coir and brf be usable as substrate in the jars? or is verm a must?




Verm is a must must must. Honestly I think its one of the most if not the most important thing for this hobby. You will use it for cakes, trays, monos, casing. You will run into compaction problems if you do not use it. It works wonders at "fluffing" thing up. I'm sure you could do it with proper ratios and good genetics, but verm is cheap as dirt and makes life easier.


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Offlinecloudsaregathering
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15183599 - 10/05/11 08:50 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Too bad you used the wrong jars. :shrug:
RR




Yeah and your guitar is not electric :headbanger:


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OfflineWing
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: cloudsaregathering]
    #15183648 - 10/05/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

cloudsaregathering said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Too bad you used the wrong jars. :shrug:
RR




Yeah and your guitar is not electric :headbanger:




LOL. Well hopefully this experiment is electric!


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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: cloudsaregathering]
    #15183713 - 10/05/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

cloudsaregathering said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Too bad you used the wrong jars. :shrug:
RR




Yeah and your guitar is not electric :headbanger:




It's cheap too! O well it was free. An old girl friend forgot it at my house years ago. Found it six months back, got her all stringed up and have been learning to play ever since(the guitar that is :wink:) Electric? Acoustic all the way...Unless you mean plugging in an acoustic haha.


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Re: The battle is on! BRF Cakes Vs.... [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15184439 - 10/05/11 11:58 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I often wondered how adding to BRF recipes will turn out. I hear must discourage it due to higher risk of contams & what not, but I'm interested to see how this turns out. Sending good vibes your way though.

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