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Offlinedarshan
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A question of Genetics
    #13506486 - 11/18/10 10:09 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I posted something like the following at the end of the thread on the new SF Psilocybe species but this is probably the better place for it.

Can someone answer, or point me in the right direction to get an understanding of, the following:

When one dikaryotic hypha of cubensis meets another dikaryotic hypha of cubensis with distinct parent spores, can anastamosis occur?  If so, since hyphae are septated but have multiple nuclei per compartment, what does this mean for the metabolic behaviour in the hyphae?  Does each nucleus independently use its own DNA to transcribe digestive enzymes, etc?  What happens in the fruitbody and its basidia if there can be genetically 100% distinct nuclei floating around?

I've only just started reading Carlile's The Fungi, but maybe I'll be able to answer my own pedestrian questions soon enough if I get the big swat-down on this one.

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Offlinedarshan
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: darshan]
    #13508728 - 11/19/10 11:10 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Let me rephrase this for clarity:

What is the current level of understanding of psilocybe genetics (# of genes, # of millions of base pairs)?

What are the known structures and their roles in psilocybe species hyphae, specifically regarding the agents of enzyme synthesis, metabolism, and energy storage?


Thanks!

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: darshan]
    #13510034 - 11/19/10 03:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

When one dikaryotic hypha of cubensis meets another dikaryotic hypha of cubensis with distinct parent spores, a comin' thru the rye.
When one dikaryotic hypha of cubensis meets another dikaryotic hypha of cubensis with distinct parent spores, can anastamosis occur?


Some say yes, it can sometimes. Some say you have to introduce them using snake venom. Some say, no, they'll never get it on.

Peace
-PS


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #13510781 - 11/19/10 05:45 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

When one dikaryotic hypha of cubensis meets another dikaryotic hypha of cubensis with distinct parent spores, can anastamosis occur?




Yes.

Technically, hyphae are mononucleate strands which emerge from the spores.

I believe what you're asking is can strains of dikaryotic mycelium merge into a common network, forming a cross between the two, and the answer is yes.  This happens in nature all the time with both dikaryotic mycelium and monokaryotic hyphae joining the resident network.  This is how patches are renewed year to year and don't die out due to senescence.

Snake venom is not required.  Venom is simply one agent which can help to force a pairing between non-compatible strains which would otherwise maintain separate networks.  It also doesn't work every time.
RR


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Offlinedarshan
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13512137 - 11/19/10 10:46 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

When one dikaryotic hypha of cubensis meets another dikaryotic hypha of cubensis with distinct parent spores, can anastamosis occur?




Yes.

Technically, hyphae are mononucleate strands which emerge from the spores.

I believe what you're asking is can strains of dikaryotic mycelium merge into a common network, forming a cross between the two, and the answer is yes.  This happens in nature all the time with both dikaryotic mycelium and monokaryotic hyphae joining the resident network.  This is how patches are renewed year to year and don't die out due to senescence.

Snake venom is not required.  Venom is simply one agent which can help to force a pairing between non-compatible strains which would otherwise maintain separate networks.  It also doesn't work every time.
RR




Oh, I thought hyphae can be either what you describe, or the individual sub-units that aggregate and comprise what we call mycelium.  Is that not also correct?

Is this thing about venom a joke?

Finally, what can you say, if anything, about the internal cellular specifics for a cross between two dikaryon strains?

THANKS!

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13512767 - 11/20/10 01:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Technically, hyphae are mononucleate strands which emerge from the spores.




Or any other part of the mycelium, SFAIK. Hyphae

(Rattle)snake venom apparently is used to dissolve the cell walls and encourage genetic transfer. 

Peace
-PS

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #13513717 - 11/20/10 09:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

Technically, hyphae are mononucleate strands which emerge from the spores.




Or any other part of the mycelium, SFAIK. Hyphae
-PS




No, in mushroom discussion, hyphae are strands of monokaryotic mycelium.  That article mostly concerns imperfect fungi, which is mononucleate, thus it's appropriate to refer to mold mycelium as hyphae, or an individual cell as hypha.

By definition, hyphae are branched.  You don't see much branching in dikaryons.  You see branching in mold mycelium, and in mononucleate mushroom mycelium which has not yet found a suitable 'mate'.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13514847 - 11/20/10 02:31 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Doubtful, Basidiomycota aren't somehow exempt from standard nomenclature.

Quote:

Karyogamy is delayed, so that the compatible nuclei remain in pairs, called a dikaryon. The hyphae are then said to be dikaryotic. Conversely, the haploid mycelia are called monokaryons.




Just a convenient citation from Basidiomycota in Wikipedia, but what the hell.

Knowing you can't win an argument like this, I'm leaving it.  :bye:

Peace
-PS

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Offlineplustax
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #13515263 - 11/20/10 03:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

wait why would rattle snake venom dissolve cells membrane? I thought cells membranes (in fungi at least) were made of keratin. Snake venom is an enzyme that removes a FA from a phospholipid iirc.

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OfflineMetamorph
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: plustax]
    #13518354 - 11/21/10 07:19 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Cell membranes? You mean cell walls, right? They are mainly made of chitin, not keratin. As far as I know, keratin is only produced by animals.

Quote:

By definition, hyphae are branched.



Really? Where did you get that from?

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: Metamorph]
    #13518569 - 11/21/10 09:08 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Metamorph said:
Really? Where did you get that from?




You don't have a microscope?
RR


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OfflineMetamorph
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13518650 - 11/21/10 09:45 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I do, but that's not what I meant :grin:
I was wondering what definition you were refering to. Are you saying an unbranched hypha is not a hypha? And what would you call the single strands that make up a dikaryotic mycelium, if not hyphae? I'm confused...

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: Metamorph]
    #13518977 - 11/21/10 11:16 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

what would you call the single strands that make up a dikaryotic mycelium



Mycelium.

It's important not to confuse molds with mushroom mycelium.  Conidial mycelium is mononucleate and heavily branched.  With mushroom mycelium, the hyphae which emerge from spores is mononucleate and heavily branched.  Once it 'mates' with a compatible hyphae, it becomes dikaryotic mycelium(polynucleate) and the branching disappears for the most part.  If you look at your mushroom mycelium under the microscope and see branching, you can assume it's contaminated.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineMetamorph
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13519202 - 11/21/10 12:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Still, I haven't found any definition of hyphae that somehow excluded unbranched hyphae and the term "dikaryotic hyphae" seems to be pretty commonly used...

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13520309 - 11/21/10 04:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Does anyone have a decent micrograph of branching?  That would be a useful indicator to tell if what you had was a mold or mushroom mycelium.


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Offlinedarshan
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: darshan]
    #13520860 - 11/21/10 06:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Does anyone have information or a link to information regarding the status of sequencing in mushroom identification?  I just wonder how common it's become, if researchers are doing it themselves or sending the work elsewhere, and what is being learned about the genetic complexity of these organisms.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: darshan]
    #13521305 - 11/21/10 07:45 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Alan Rockefeller or CureCat would know.


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Offlinedarshan
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13537169 - 11/24/10 07:44 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Alan Rockefeller or CureCat would know.




How do they take to PM's?

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: darshan]
    #13537173 - 11/24/10 07:46 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The regular way.  They both mod the Hunting forum if you didn't know.

:cheers:


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Offlinedarshan
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Re: A question of Genetics [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13537194 - 11/24/10 07:49 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
The regular way.  They both mod the Hunting forum if you didn't know.

:cheers:



In other words they're not going to get bent out of shape about it?  Or I should just post the question in Hunting?

Thanks; I'm just a little autistic in some respects and it's especially hard to know what's appropriate in written communication.

Cheers to you.  Enjoy Thanksgiving if you're in the US.

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