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 intelligentlife
Arctic Human
 
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 Grafted Peyote buttons = No Mescaline? 
#13413104 - 10/31/10 06:56 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hi everyone!
I'm new at this forum and I really need to talk about grafted peyotes. Let's make a fictional character who have 13years old peyote. Lophophora Williamsii var. Caespitosa. It have flowered..
Ok.. Now he have take some buttons from peyote and grafted these to San Pedro and Peruvian Torches. They all looking fine. BUT: I have read and heard information that peyote doesn't contain mescaline at all when they are grafted to another stock. Can someone tell me correct information or even experience about that?
When we look at our character now: In a few years he have more bigger grafted peyotes than actually mother plant are where the buttons have been taken. Do he need to "degraft" these peyotes go get them produce mescaline or is mescaline content just little lower at grafted ones than non-grafted specimen he have?
What will our character do cause he planned to consume buttons in future? Do he collect buttons from grafted stock or "degraft" them and collect them after three or four years from "degraft" to get them produce mescaline?
I wanna hear someone who have experience of knowledge about that "not mescaline at all when grafted"-peyotes. Is that true or false?
I can understand these grafted ones will produce less mescaline than non-graftet, but 'not mescaline at all' I don't understand.. That's the thing what confusing me. Cause the the grafted buttons are from 13years old peyote what our fictional character have grafted to trichos. 
I'm maybe sure about they will produce only less mescaline as the same size non-grafted specimens but is that true that they produce mescaline _only after_ when they are "degrafted" back to own roots and let them grow roots for few years?
Sorry about my bad English cause I'm from Europe, but I hope you understand my point at this post and can give me some knowledge about 'myth' that peyote don't produce mescaline at all when grafted. 
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 Ambient Forest
Beyond the infinite.
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The mescaline content will be alot lower in grafted lophs due to its rapid physical growth, but not completely void. If you wish to consume cacti for its mescaline content why not use one of the Trichocereus sp. (Bridgesii, Peruvianus, Pachanoi) They grow larger & faster than peyote & are also legal to grow for "gardening purposes"
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intelligentlife
Arctic Human
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 Re: Grafted Peyote buttons = No Mescaline? [Re: Ambient Forest]
#13413409 - 10/31/10 09:58 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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My character have consumed few times trichos when travelling. He thinks that peyote have something what Trichos don't have.
And another thing what i need to tell about law here: Peyote and Trichos are both illegal in my characters country but at same time they are legal.. It depends that why you cultivate it for... Law says something like that: "It is illegal to grow and try to grow mescaline containing cactis if they are cultivated by meaning of use it as a drug or making a drug from cactus" law doesn't say anything about growing them for only collecting cactis. Mescaline is illegal if its found at pure or dried cactus form. And cactus its illegal only _if_ someone have proof that they are cultivated by meaning consuming cactus AND you have to proof that you cultivate them only for collect cactis and not even think about to consuming it. So I can have cactus but not mescaline and I can't have cactus if cultivation meaning is used it as a drug. So confusing law that i don't even know do my character grow them legally or illegally. 
Cactus is kinda funny cause law only says its illegal to cultivate them to used as drug but nowhere are mentioned that cultivation is illegal if you only cultivate them. 
My character is so confused with whole law about drugs here and a police actually doesn't even know what kind of cactus contains mescaline and what do not contain mescaline. My character have about 20 different species of cactis at his collection, only trichos and peyote are mescaline containing cactis.
No one have actually knowledge there where is my character lives what is mescaline cactus! It's so rare that its not even noticeable. Only drugs like cannabis, coke, meth, mdma and others "easy made and cultivate"-drugs are known there.. actually sacred cactus its very very rare and thats why knowledge of cactis are very poor there where my character lives.
Actually my character need proof that the cactis what containing mescaline are not to be cultivated by any meanings of using cactus as a drug. That law includes all mescaline containing cactis. 
But its only illegal to grow them to using as drug or making mescaline of these. Only I can say that law doesn't mention "peyote" "san pedro" "peruvian torch" it's all same shit here what comes to law.. only "mescaline containing cactus" and "..meaning of use it as a drug" have mentioned at drug law.
So its legal to grow them if my character grow them without thinking/knowing that he might be consume these someday. So he don't know what kind of cactus is what.. And it's legal then.. I think. But who the hell knows what will happened to cactus if grower doesn't know that its containing mescaline and doesn't even want to consume it. In that case my character can cultivate all cactis if he is a collector or greenhouse grower. But thats the problem too.. If my character have big greenhouse full of peyotes and trichos its more like illegal cultivation and its hard to proof against the law that these are not cultivated by consuming at that point.. If he have only few trichos and one old peyote at bigger cacti collection they might be legal cause he doensn't have to know that these cactis containing mescaline. And he collects all cactis what he can find, not only trichos or peyote. 
Ok, so there will be mescaline at grafted buttons, thank you.. Only less than the plant what grows with it's own roots. I think the amount of mescaline and other alkaloids are about the same as trichos then? So the character need to consume same amount grafted peyote as trichocereus..(??) or consume both of them.. Little bit of peruvian torch and little bit of peyote buttons at the same time.. I think he would like to try that. But he might know that these cactis is illegal to grow as a drug so he said: "I don't know anything about what cactus is what.. I just collect more and more differend species of cactis, I dont have any botanical meanings to cactis if my collection contains few mescaline cactis too.." 
Thanks for the info dude! And thats the funny law here so it doesn't matter what cactus someone have, only matter is what he have on he's mind about growing mescaline cactus. Do he grow these to consuming or just for pleasure of growing cactis. 
I Think difference is here: If you have several different cactus species its not illegal to grow peyote or trichos there too, but if you have only trichos and peyotes that looks like you cultivate these cactis to drug and you have only interested by mescaline containing cactis. As a collector my character can have these cactis at his collection but if the THINK about cultivate them to drug makes these cactis illegal. Funny huh?
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Ambient Forest
Beyond the infinite.
Registered: 07/16/09
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If you keep dried cactus around the house, it looks like its for extraction. If you keep live cactus around the house, it looks like you enjoy growing & collecting rare species of cacti. Even if you had heaps growing you could say they were collectors items that you sold to other collectors for collecting purposes only. Basically if the cops have reasonable grounds to prove that you have cactus for extraction & you can't explain your way out of it then they will be able to fine you. This however is unlikely, most cops aren't cacti experts, nor is mescaline containing cacti a widely publicized drug. Just be wise about it & don't leave obvious signs that you intend to or have been extracting mescaline from rare cacti.
Peyote is probably the most well known mescaline containing cactus & is illegal to posses (dead or alive) in some countries. One of the reasons for this is that peyote (when grown naturally & not grafted) can have a very high mescaline content, sometimes as high as 5-6% of a dried buttons weight. Trichocereus sp. are much less potent per dried gram, at most reaching around 1-2% in mescaline content. Cactus potency can vary greatly in both species, depending on inherited genetics & how they were grown, (you will more commonly get less than the amounts stated above).
Not only is there varying amounts of mescaline in different species of cacti there is also varying types of alkaloids. These varying alkaloids can influence the type of trip you have, but essentially you will still experience a mescaline trip. Peyote contains the highest number of different types of alkaloids.
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intelligentlife
Arctic Human
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Re: Grafted Peyote buttons = No Mescaline? [Re: Ambient Forest]
#13413972 - 10/31/10 01:34 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes I have noticed that cops aren't experts with cactis. About year ago they actyally run to my home and find only 3 cannabis sativa cuttings and i got 120euro ticket for that.. I have arrested about 4 times about cannabis cultivation. anytime I have got 120euro penalty for that. I have feelings they will come soon and check my apartment again.. Have done that for few year now on. They leave all cactis, bongs and opium poppys to me and don't mind of these plants at all. They ask about papaver somniferum but I said its not growing for used as a drug and they leave these plants to my apartment. Only take my three cannabis sativa cuttings away.
I'm sure that in this country cops doesn't notice grafted cactis either even when i have other cactis too grafted at my collection, they don't contain mescaline just practice graftings I have made. And if cops know peyote I'm sure they think that grafted plant is one plant and peyote is that what grows at ground, in case others is just stock with funny looking clusters top of it.
And at my case.. I think if(and when again) they come to visit my apartment they only look about cannabis cultivation and doesn't mind other plants at all what I have in the house. I mean I have alot of plants and cactis at my apartment and I don't hide nothing cause I cultivate them just for pleasure of cultivation.. I cultivate several cactis and some chili at my window with 125Watt growing lamp top of them. Everyone can see trough my window and see several different green cactis and plants under the bright light. At summertime my cactis have sun and growing light together and at winter I have to use my light to keep them look good. At mid-winter there is no sunrise on sunset. And at summer sun shines 24/7
Another thing was on my mind: Is there any difference at mescaline content if I'm graft button from 13years old peyote instead of I graft 1-2year old button? 
My peyote with these clusters is about 5inch wide and biggest cluster is about 2.5-3inch.. There are about 30 buttons at whole plant(some of them are very small atm so I have taken few buttons from that little peyote and grafted to another cactis. Then I can grow peyotes rapidly for few year and then degraft them.
I have forgot to tell you that what happen at grafting project: I have accidentally got removed about 1/2inch diameter and about 1.5inch long piece of roots from my peyote. These little roots have few small buttons at side of it and top of it I have taken to grafting project. That piece what have been ripped of grows now at different pot.. It's surprised me that can happen with lophophora williamsii var. caespitosa. I can send photo when I got camera somewhere.
So that "cutting" from caespitosa or what I can call it? It grows, have own roots and few buttons all ready when it ripped off accidentally from cactus at the side from l.w. caespitosa. I planted it and take care of my "second" naturally grown peyote. 
EDIT: I found USB-Cable to get photos from my phone. Here is my peyote and another picture is that ripped off whole root from cactus. Picture have taken after that another part ripped off and buttons have been collected to graft them to pedros and peruvian torch root stocks.
 
Edited by intelligentlife (10/31/10 01:59 PM)
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Ambient Forest
Beyond the infinite.
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Yeah cactus is pretty tough, & will re root easily in the right conditions 
Thats a pretty nice 13yro clump you have growing & a good question on weather a button from an old naturally grown peyote would lose or retain its potency when grafted.
I have not had experience grafting buttons as old as yours. Quickly grown plant material will have lower alkaloid content, so in theory if you grafted a 3cm button & it grew to a 6cm button on a graft, there would be a high potency from the old naturally grown button mixed with a lower potency from the more rapid newer growth. You should have a more potent button than one that has been grafted all its life, but I wouldn't expect it to be as potent as a button of the same size which had stayed on its own roots. All this said though, if there were two buttons of equal size, one grafted & one left on its own roots, the grafted button would be considerably bigger after a years growth, so one would think that with the combined mesc content from the original button & the newer more rapid growth, the button would yield a higher amount of alkaloids.
This is only my theory on what would happen, I do not know it for a fact. Maybe someone else on the forums will be able to give us a more definite answer.....? guys...... someone.... anyone....  I want to know to.
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karode13
Tāne Mahuta
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Re: Grafted Peyote buttons = No Mescaline? [Re: Ambient Forest]
#13416710 - 11/01/10 03:19 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
NGX285 said:
Quickly grown plant material will have lower alkaloid content
This sentence pretty much sums it up when it comes to the alkaloid/grafting debate. It will still contain mescaline. The plants genetic make up ensures this will happen, it's not like we're removing the cells that produce it.
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intelligentlife
Arctic Human
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Re: Grafted Peyote buttons = No Mescaline? [Re: Ambient Forest]
#13416797 - 11/01/10 04:19 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would send pictures of grafted buttons too but I think there is no need yet. They are about 1/2inch wide when grafted to trichos. Actually few buttons I have crafted to some cactis what species actually i don't know but they will grow still more rapidly than peyote, but not as much like pedros and p torches but still enough fast to try using grafting stock.
My biggest peruvian torch is only about 20inch long and have huge 3inch spines. I doesn't use that on crafting, only younger and shorter ones.
Yes.. And I have 2months old seedlings of peruvian torches too but they are still so young to use as a grafting stock
I'm sure when my grafted peyotes are big enough I will degraft them to back and let them grow with their own roots
I don't understand why most of the forums and people from internet gives information that peyote loses mescaline production when they are grafted. I Think their experience of grafted buttons is too low dose or something when talking about consuming them or they don't have experience at all and only talking..
Edited by intelligentlife (11/01/10 04:24 AM)
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Simisu
taken by gravity
Registered: 08/08/03
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Loc: Israeli in 
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i was led to believe that caspitosa are also very low on mescaline compared to lophophoras... so you might be heading the wrong way either way
but yeah i would say that mescaline content of grafts would be lower to seed grown simply for the time it takes a loph to generate mescaline, but that is not to say you won't have any mescaline. and on top of that you can just eat more if you produce enough.
the way i'm planing it is to graft enough lophs and then degraft them, after a couple of years to harvest the first harvest (leaving the roots behind  )
it take time either way
p.s welcome to Shroomery
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Cactusdan
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Re: Grafted Peyote buttons = No Mescaline? [Re: Simisu]
#13418168 - 11/01/10 03:32 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would say that mescaline production in Lophophora is probably more related to age.
SO, a 1yr old graft Loph that is the same size as a 3yr old rooted specimen, would still have the same amount of alkaloids as a 1yr old rooted Loph.
However, I don't have any concrete evidence of this hypothesis.
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intelligentlife
Arctic Human
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Re: Grafted Peyote buttons = No Mescaline? [Re: Simisu]
#13418355 - 11/01/10 04:15 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have heard and read that caespitosa variant have lower content mescaline than other peyotes. But that plant is good to practice grafting
I have planned to grow actually normal lophophora williamsii cactus too. Maybe I have these too? maybe not.. Maybe its hard to try grafting with bigger only "one button" peyote
But grafting its just thing what I have practiced with that cactus.
...I just have noticed that when travelling and eating some trichos that they are very slimy and nasty shit to eat... peyote doesn't have thats slimy texture what tricos have.. they only tastes more like chemicals than trichos and they are easier to consume.
I can handle that chemical like taste what peyote have but trichos have that slimy taste what makes me puke.. very hard to eat whole dose.
Yes... I have ate cactus only at raw.. once have tasted dried san pedro and it doesn't have so slimy shit at all, but I have no idea how much that bag contains.. I ate it all and have good feelings at party. Actually all my trips from cactis what I have few tried; I don't ever have been look how much I have eaten.. It doesn't matter to me how much dried grams of cacti I have consumed..
Actually if I want I can consume good peruvian torch dose but i don't want to cut my biggest tricho 20inch peruvian torch.. I just cultivate it.
I have 2months old peruvian torch seedlings and few 6-7inch torches too but thats for the future like all of the trichos.. Then I can look several big trichos and think "what a nice cactis I have... (?) "
Thanks.. That forum is nice and cool.
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Ambient Forest
Beyond the infinite.
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Quote:
intelligentlife said:
...I just have noticed that when travelling and eating some trichos that they are very slimy and nasty shit to eat... peyote doesn't have thats slimy texture what tricos have.. they only tastes more like chemicals than trichos and they are easier to consume.
I can handle that chemical like taste what peyote have but trichos have that slimy taste what makes me puke.. very hard to eat whole dose.
Yes... I have ate cactus only at raw.. once have tasted dried san pedro and it doesn't have so slimy shit at all, but I have no idea how much that bag contains.. I ate it all and have good feelings at party. Actually all my trips from cactis what I have few tried; I don't ever have been look how much I have eaten.. It doesn't matter to me how much dried grams of cacti I have consumed..
Time for an extraction
This is the easiest most tasteless, runny cactus snotless method I have tried. The only painful bit of this method was filling the caps at the end, sooo tedious trying to pack those 00 caps full of cactus resin (couldn't find 000  ). This method will take roughly a week, start to finish & dramatically reduces the amount you have to consume.
Easy alcohol extraction
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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
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grafts are often filled with more water...hence the reason for any reasonable test to use dried material.
grafts are still magic.
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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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LinnaeusAzul
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Older ceaspitose buttons are fine just nothing less then the size of a silver dollar piece. As far as grafts go with potency they do catch up. For the first 2 years grafted I find them raher week. After that they are great, only problem is you have to cut the pups off to get to the ones you want. Guess that just makes more grafts. Also I would never try to graft a 13 year old cactus its vascular rings are all hard cellulose. Pups off of it would be your prime grafting material.
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intelligentlife
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Re: Grafted Peyote buttons = No Mescaline? [Re: LinnaeusAzul]
#13435431 - 11/04/10 08:43 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LinnaeusAzul said:
Older ceaspitose buttons are fine just nothing less then the size of a silver dollar piece. As far as grafts go with potency they do catch up. For the first 2 years grafted I find them raher week. After that they are great, only problem is you have to cut the pups off to get to the ones you want. Guess that just makes more grafts. Also I would never try to graft a 13 year old cactus its vascular rings are all hard cellulose. Pups off of it would be your prime grafting material.
I have grafted and cutted only less than 1/2inch diameter small buttons from that l.w. caespitosa. Grafts are looking fine and they are started to grow pretty good.
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LinnaeusAzul
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Something you should be aware of if not already, ceaspitose grafts create many pups too many. This creates little microclimates in bettween the buttons with very high humidity, a dark environment and even condensation if temps vary. So if for the winter you bring them in a greenhouse or into a indoor setup make sure you watch that humidity. One way to remedey this is constant temps, good air circulation and removing unnecessary pups(ones that have no room to grow large or in tight places). Also I'm not sure of your grafting methods but superglue I have always found the best for attaching scions to the meristem of the plant of choice. Wishing you success on your new grafts!
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intelligentlife
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Re: Grafted Peyote buttons = No Mescaline? [Re: LinnaeusAzul]
#13442478 - 11/06/10 10:13 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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These are growing indoors and humidity is pretty low all the time. I have noticed that caespitosa makes new bubs almost from every areole what cactus have
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Ubitsa
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I choose to believe they have the same potency/weight as non-grafted peyote.
It's kinda silly nobody's done a test yet, it'd be fairly easy to just do an extraction on ~20 grafted peyote and see how much mesc. could be got.
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intelligentlife
Arctic Human
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Re: Grafted Peyote buttons = No Mescaline? [Re: Ubitsa]
#13446851 - 11/07/10 05:34 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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...or only grafted ones have much more water inside them than naturally growing with them own roots.
When drying the cactus material it would be as potent as normally growing peyote when it dried too. If its correct that these grafted ones have only more water inside the cactus and when dried grafted ones they loose much more weight than normally peyote would loose.
And then mescaline content at grafted ones can be closer to peyote what growing with its own roots when compairing buttons full dried. But thats the thing I don't know.
But I makes sense that when drying the buttons, crafted ones loose more weight(water) than normally grown buttons so mescaline content as dried buttons would be the almost same or not as much as normally growing buttons. But the thing is: These grafted ones would be loose much more weight and size when they are dried. Who knows? Who want to sacrifice peyotes to proof that?
But that is cactus... What the thing with cannabis sativa/indica plants is. I have noticed that when growing at hydro its more faster and more potent than growing in soil.. I have cultivated same clones of one plant at hydro and soil and hydro cultivation seems that cannabis sativa makes more alkaloids to plant as fast as they grow. But I don't think that's the same thing with the cacti cultivation.
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anne halonium
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17047609/fpart/1/vc/1
the water balloon myth has been exploded.
for all practical purposes , biomass is biomass.
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expect more in the new age................
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