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Labrattic
Stranger
Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 47
Loc: A Mary land
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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bruising info, Let's get on the ball
#12002148 - 02/10/10 12:46 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have found that there not a lot of info on bruising here. If someone disagrees please point me in the right direction. I guess its so common we don't pay attention. The given is handling the cake cause bruising. And i have read about high temp. causing bruising as well.
But i have had cakes that i dropped on the floor and never had a bruising issue. I suspect that not only a high temp. will cause bruising but also a fluctuation in temps will do it. I found this when not playing close enough attention to my FC and made several temperature corrections, this seemed to trigger a Strong bruising in the cakes.
Also trama the mushrooms cause to them-self EX: I was having a problem with FAE and had some mycelium (or white fuzz, I'm 98% sure its not trich) growing on the stems. so i created a nice breeze with a air-purifier and fuzz was gone but left to take its place is a dark bruising. Heres a pic. http://http://
what do you guys think? Any good reports on bruising? Help us noobies please
-------------------- Exsperience is only one rout to wisdom.
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Jiggle
Peanut Herder
Registered: 01/13/10
Posts: 360
Loc: The South
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Labrattic]
#12002202 - 02/10/10 12:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm pretty sure that the bruising is showing a breakdown in some of the psychoactive chemicals, there would have to be a TON of bruising to be able to tell the difference in potency though.
Pretty sure if your mushrooms bruised under that air purifier it was blowing on them too hard for too long, thus they bruised.
The cakes you dropped, may not have bruised because a fresh coat of mycellium covered the areas it was bruised from the fall. Just a theory
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sordid
Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 278
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Labrattic]
#12002210 - 02/10/10 12:55 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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i heard its form oxidation, also the more potent the darker the bruising.
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duffzilla
Stranger
Registered: 12/06/09
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Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Jiggle]
#12002223 - 02/10/10 12:57 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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I had no idea how sensitive pins/small shrooms were to bruising until I was fanning and knocked a few big water drops on the stem and noticed bruising a couple of minutes later under the drops.
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Labrattic
Stranger
Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 47
Loc: A Mary land
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Jiggle]
#12002305 - 02/10/10 01:08 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Jiggle said: I'm pretty sure that the bruising is showing a breakdown in some of the psychoactive chemicals
See this is what I'm talking about every time we talk about bruising I here different/new stuff EVERY time. it's like the info never ends but there's no reliable report (that i know of).
-------------------- Exsperience is only one rout to wisdom.
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Labrattic
Stranger
Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 47
Loc: A Mary land
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Labrattic]
#12002444 - 02/10/10 01:27 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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here's another one for ya Does bruising affect a spore print in any way and if so how so.
-------------------- Exsperience is only one rout to wisdom.
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sordid
Registered: 02/03/10
Posts: 278
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Labrattic]
#12029122 - 02/14/10 05:47 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not that I know of.
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feelfunny
I am you
Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 8,747
Loc: South
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Labrattic]
#12029151 - 02/14/10 05:51 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Labrattic said: here's another one for ya Does bruising affect a spore print in any way and if so how so.
no it dosnet. bruseing is oxidation, and caused by stress, like lake of water playing with them or them getting old. but has nothing to do with potency
-------------------- IF A CAT AND DOG CAN GET ALONG WHY CANT EVERYONE ELSE? If the sky is falling, don't look up! Feel Family Founder. me if you are tired of hearing, "Use the search function".
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prismism
Registered: 05/11/09
Posts: 5,570
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: sordid]
#12029288 - 02/14/10 06:06 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
sordid said: i heard its form oxidation, also the more potent the darker the bruising.
i've never seen any proof to that statement although it isn't the first time i have heard it. i would like it if you stop spreading myths unless you can back it up with actual data.
-------------------- ephemeral anomalous
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badman
Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: prismism]
#12029361 - 02/14/10 06:18 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
prismism said:
Quote:
sordid said: i heard its form oxidation, also the more potent the darker the bruising.
i've never seen any proof to that statement although it isn't the first time i have heard it. i would like it if you stop spreading myths unless you can back it up with actual data.
I agree
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feelfunny
I am you
Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 8,747
Loc: South
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: badman]
#12029368 - 02/14/10 06:19 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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silly noobs and there bad info. gets really old after a while and there is just so many of them now saying all this crazy stuff filling this site with bad info
-------------------- IF A CAT AND DOG CAN GET ALONG WHY CANT EVERYONE ELSE? If the sky is falling, don't look up! Feel Family Founder. me if you are tired of hearing, "Use the search function".
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mannextdoor
The man next door...
Registered: 09/14/11
Posts: 209
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: feelfunny]
#16238469 - 05/16/12 04:32 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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The bruising is a formation of oxidation products (which are blue colored, maybe somewhat with a indigo or similar skeleton) from psilocin (psilocybin is much more air-stable due the protected -OH group at the indole system). So, if bruising is a oxidation product from psilocin you also lost an amount of psilocin (and a bit of potency). The bruising is not a real indicator of potency of a shroom, but it can roughly indicate a relative high psilocin content. Remember, a few Psilocybe-species (for reason P. semilanceata)dont bruise but are quite potent....
mannextdoor
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: mannextdoor]
#16238895 - 05/16/12 07:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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You bumped a two year old thread to recite old allegations without evidence? Who says it's psilocin breaking down? Somebody with a gc/ms and skillz to use it? Or a guy with a keyboard?
No particular connection between bluing and potency is the evidence that the community has so far.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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mannextdoor
The man next door...
Registered: 09/14/11
Posts: 209
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Doc_T]
#16238917 - 05/16/12 07:54 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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sry, i didn´t recognize the date of the thread....but yes, i am a guy with access and skills to gc/ms and/or other analytical staff. Also, this is, was literature says about the bluing reaction. But you´ve right, the final (blue) product seems to be unknown yet.
mannextdoor
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: mannextdoor]
#16238967 - 05/16/12 08:12 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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The 'literature' has been wrong many many times in regards to the Psilocybes, and this is a case of that. We've all seen that there's no connection between bluing and potency.
If you can prove it's psilocin degrading, then run the experiment and post your proof. It'll be groundbreaking work, a thread that gets bookmarked and favorited for years. Seriously, if you can find out just what chemical reactions are causing the blue, you'll be a legend.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Amanita virosa
botanist by day
Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 2,458
Loc: north kakalacky
Last seen: 8 months, 14 days
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Doc_T]
#16238990 - 05/16/12 08:22 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Doc T is right, And if you can't trust Erowid, who can you trust?
Q: There is a persistent rumor in my area about psilocybin mushrooms that says if you get a bag with a lot of blue colored shrooms in it, that means it's more potent. Wouldn't a blue color at best have no effect and at worst be a sign of contamination? A: The bluing reaction is widely believed to be the result of the presence of psilocin in the mushroom. The bluing is believed to be caused by the oxidization of currently unidentified chemical. Although speculative, the bluing reaction is considered by Paul Stamets to "parallel" the degradation of psilocin. In Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World, Stamets writes: "Apparently, the bluing pigmentation is a result of a phenomenon paralleling the degradation of unstable psilocin (dephosphorylated psilocybin) to presently unknown compounts by enzymes within the mushroom cells." (pg 56). According to this theory, bluing in these species means there is (or was) some psilocin present (don't use that as the only method of identification). Many people theorize that more blue means the mushroom is more potent, but there is no evidence for this that I know of.
In fact, it's possible that the opposite may be true. Jochen Gartz reports that in P. cubenisis, "the spontaneous bluing is a sign of a significant decomposition of the alkaloids".(1) So the blue may be the result of the destruction of psilocin...meaning the more blue a specific mushroom has on it, the less potent that mushroom is.
More likely is that the bluing has little to do with the overall content of psilocin or psilocybin. Several papers address this possibility.(2,3,4) It is known that several mushrooms which do not contain any psilocybin or psilocin, have a bluing reaction. It is also known that some mushrooms that do contain psilocybin and psilocin do not bruise at all.
At this point, the true cause of bluing, and therefore its relationship with the potency of any particular mushroom, is unknown.
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Amanita virosa]
#16239960 - 05/16/12 12:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
In fact, it's possible that the opposite may be true. Jochen Gartz reports that in P. cubenisis, "the spontaneous bluing is a sign of a significant decomposition of the alkaloids".(1) So the blue may be the result of the destruction of psilocin...meaning the more blue a specific mushroom has on it, the less potent that mushroom is.
"Go not to the Elves for advice, for they will say both Yay and Nay"
If bluing = psilocin loss, then you're losing potency with bruising. Of course, since most of the psilocin is lost during drying, bluing shouldn't affect the potency of dried mushrooms either way.
But again, a complete explanation of the chemicals involved would be awesome.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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mannextdoor
The man next door...
Registered: 09/14/11
Posts: 209
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Doc_T]
#16261572 - 05/21/12 05:44 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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That sounds interesting! So, if I get some material in the future I try to do some investigative science. Ok, here is the idea: extract the mushrooms with acetone or methanol to get a (hopefully) blue extract. Then some separation steps will be nessesary...and a final separation with HPLC and analyzing with NMR. Maybe i get a result.
One more question: How can you maximize the "bluing"? Drying the material, then grounding and do the extraction?
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: mannextdoor]
#16261581 - 05/21/12 05:55 AM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why dry them? Why extract them? Take a fresh specimen, analyze contents. Press same mushroom between fingers to bruise, analyze contents. Compare one result to the other, one ingredient will show a decrease while another increases.
In humans it's hemoglobin and bilirubin. If you can figure out what's changing in Psilocybe mushrooms, you'll have added to the pool of human knowledge.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Kizzle
Misanthrope
Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,866
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Re: bruising info, Let's get on the ball [Re: Amanita virosa]
#16263156 - 05/21/12 02:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago) |
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Even if the bruising is solely from the degradation of active ingredients, wouldn't relatively heavy bruising in a mushroom simply indicate that there was more of those substances on outer parts of the mushroom or that those parts were more vulnerable to damage that exposes those chemicals to oxygen? I've ground fresh mushrooms up in a blender and they turn black as ink so I'm forced to believe that normal bruising is caused by a very small proportion of those chemicals and is a bad indicator as to how much of those chemicals have been lost.
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