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Offlinesnoot
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alkaloid production post veil breakage
    #11808171 - 01/11/10 01:33 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I remember reading somewhere, that once the veil breaks on psilocybe mushrooms, that production of its precious psychedelic alkaloids cease, and the production of spores takes over. Anyone have any thoughts about this? I cant remember where I read it, but I remember thinking, this would explain why some people claim that aborts and other lil mushrooms end up being so damn potent, maybe this is just a giant misconception of something else I'm not sure.,

So when does production of alkaloids begin? When do spores begin to be produced? Do they stock pile before the fruit is developed?, like opiates pre pod in poppies, fungus may act completely differently but I guess I'm just curious. Does the Veil signify anything? Any stage in the fruit's life that means anything?


Any good information on this topic would be wonderfull, as I cannot seem to find the article I remember reading. It sounds kinda crazy but honestly I dont think it would be to far fetched of an idea, maybe they dont cease alkaloid production entirely but I could see if ceasing a bit to maximize spore production.


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: snoot]
    #11808237 - 01/11/10 01:41 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I'm pretty sure everything you've stated is true.

Production of alkaloids begin when the mushroom begins fruiting, that's why aborts are so potent.

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Offlinebardleyrichard
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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: linkin17222]
    #11808287 - 01/11/10 01:48 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I think you're right, but I also think that it would be pretty damn hard to prove it in any quantitative way.


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: bardleyrichard]
    #11808378 - 01/11/10 01:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

i used to pick em as the veil broke now I let them open all the way because i think it looks neat and i'v never ever noticed any difference in potency. Your growth parameters and genetic have so much more to do with it I think that it's a moot point.


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: Grumpyorc]
    #11808898 - 01/11/10 03:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

For maximum potency, pick at the large pin size before the veil even starts to tear.  In addition, they won't taste nearly so nasty if you're not eating all those spores.
RR


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11809070 - 01/11/10 03:41 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Followed this advice with PE and Ban Than.  With the PE, the first flush were picked tiny.  Second flush, waited till after opened, and they continued to grow, with no apparent potency loss (and no spores either).  So, are the PE different, by virtue of their unique spore production traits?

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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11811898 - 01/11/10 10:36 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
For maximum potency, pick at the large pin size before the veil even starts to tear.  In addition, they won't taste nearly so nasty if you're not eating all those spores.
RR





but is the science true tho? Does production cease or slow done of alkaloids to benefit the production of spores?


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: snoot]
    #11813677 - 01/12/10 09:14 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

No, the science is not valid.  If you let the fruit stretch all the way out, it's just engorging with water.  If you want most potency per gram of dry product, pick as a large pin before the cap opens.
RR


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11813707 - 01/12/10 09:21 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Hmmm very interesting ill keep that in mind :thanx:

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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11814181 - 01/12/10 10:53 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
No, the science is not valid.  If you let the fruit stretch all the way out, it's just engorging with water.  If you want most potency per gram of dry product, pick as a large pin before the cap opens.
RR




So it does keep producing alkaloids threwout its adulthood, so as it engorges in water, it should be building more alkaloids, so one would think as it grows, itll keep getting more and more potent.


I'm just trying to understand.


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: snoot]
    #11814468 - 01/12/10 11:59 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

snoot said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
No, the science is not valid.  If you let the fruit stretch all the way out, it's just engorging with water.  If you want most potency per gram of dry product, pick as a large pin before the cap opens.
RR




So it does keep producing alkaloids threwout its adulthood, so as it engorges in water, it should be building more alkaloids, so one would think as it grows, itll keep getting more and more potent.


I'm just trying to understand.





no, its being diluted not getting more potent. :stoned:


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11814486 - 01/12/10 12:03 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

13shrooms said:
Quote:

snoot said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
No, the science is not valid.  If you let the fruit stretch all the way out, it's just engorging with water.  If you want most potency per gram of dry product, pick as a large pin before the cap opens.
RR




So it does keep producing alkaloids threwout its adulthood, so as it engorges in water, it should be building more alkaloids, so one would think as it grows, itll keep getting more and more potent.


I'm just trying to understand.





no, its being diluted not getting more potent. :stoned:





so that goes with saying its not producing anymore then eh?


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11814510 - 01/12/10 12:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I just read a 7 year old thread about this same subject, which sadly, ended with alot of folks yelling at eachother.  I didnt learn much from it except that Science proves enough about fungi only to put them into a classification.  All the rest is theory from experience which has just been posted and reiterated by two of the best.


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: snoot]
    #11814526 - 01/12/10 12:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

snoot said:
Quote:

13shrooms said:
Quote:

snoot said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
No, the science is not valid.  If you let the fruit stretch all the way out, it's just engorging with water.  If you want most potency per gram of dry product, pick as a large pin before the cap opens.
RR




So it does keep producing alkaloids threwout its adulthood, so as it engorges in water, it should be building more alkaloids, so one would think as it grows, itll keep getting more and more potent.


I'm just trying to understand.





no, its being diluted not getting more potent. :stoned:





so that goes with saying its not producing anymore then eh?





it may produce some more actives but not enough to have a high potency gram for gram because of the amount water diluting it.


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11814653 - 01/12/10 12:36 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Once the pin is fully formed, cell division stops, meaning no more cells are produced.  What happens is the existing cells expand/stretch as they engorge with water.
RR


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11814754 - 01/12/10 12:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Once the pin is fully formed, cell division stops, meaning no more cells are produced.  What happens is the existing cells expand/stretch as they engorge with water.
RR





so then the theory is correct ? or am I misinterpreting this?


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: snoot]
    #11814929 - 01/12/10 01:29 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Once the pin is fully formed, cell division stops, meaning no more cells are produced.  What happens is the existing cells expand/stretch as they engorge with water.
RR




I tried explaining this to some other shroomerites but they know better (think they do at least). :smirk:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11425060#11425060

Quote:

snoot said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Once the pin is fully formed, cell division stops, meaning no more cells are produced.  What happens is the existing cells expand/stretch as they engorge with water.
RR





so then the theory is correct ? or am I misinterpreting this?




Im not sure what theory your using here. ? .

water weight does NOT mean more actives just diluted actives of similer amounts in bigger mushies.  :thumbup:


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11814954 - 01/12/10 01:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

13shrooms said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Once the pin is fully formed, cell division stops, meaning no more cells are produced.  What happens is the existing cells expand/stretch as they engorge with water.
RR




I tried explaining this to some other shroomerites but they (think) know better. :smirk:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11425060#11425060

Quote:

snoot said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Once the pin is fully formed, cell division stops, meaning no more cells are produced.  What happens is the existing cells expand/stretch as they engorge with water.
RR





so then the theory is correct ? or am I misinterpreting this?




Im not sure what theory your using here. ? .

water weight does NOT mean more actives just diluted actives of similer amounts in bigger mushies.  :thumbup:




right the theory being; at the point that the veil breaks, the fruit typically will cease or slowdown the production of its delicious psychedelic alkaloids, either to concentrate on generating spores, or for some other reasons. If it cease all cell production, then the theory is for the most part correct in that it stops production of its alkaloids around the time its pin is formed. Meaning that in theory the younger lil guys should be equally as potent, not gram for gram obv. I know when I've eaten lil pins the trip always seemed to be intense, only when my intentions of eating only a little were still met.


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: snoot]
    #11815020 - 01/12/10 01:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

:scaryshroom::thumbup:

I had .5g of dried Dancing Tiger aborts that were so strong they intimidated me from dosing again for quite some time but all is good now. :grin:

I have not had an intense experience like that since nor from fully mature mushies ever (unless I eat like 14g+). :crazy2::mushroom2::crazy2:


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Re: alkaloid production post veil breakage [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11815154 - 01/12/10 01:54 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

As I wrote here:
If you plot the data at http://www.shroomery.org/8700/Psilocybe-azurescens-taxonomy-paper, you can see that, for P. azurescens, the smaller mushrooms are more potent (contains a higher concentration of psilocybin and psilocin) - however, the larger mushrooms contain more of psilocybin and psilocin in total. A reasonable conclusion would be that the mushrooms produce alkaloids at a high rate initially, and continues to produce alkaloids while they grow, but at a lower rate. So if you want more alkaloids, you should allow the mushrooms to grow big. If you want potent mushrooms, you should pick them early.

I doubt it has anything to do with the velum.

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