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 Trompe le Monde
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Registered: 11/11/09
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 COuld meditation be placebo effect? 
#11433393 - 11/11/09 03:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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and if it is placebo for someone, would it still be meditation?
I understand that meditation is subjective, but I am wondering if there is a borderline between going really deep or just having a placebo effect because you believe in the idea of meditation.
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 The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc: 
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What else is a placebo effect but a mental effect that then has a physical effect?
So meditation is placebo as mediation is all mental
Everything in existence is placebo (as i defined placebo)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
  
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Medication doesn't have this effect you're talking about, it is only the result of the individual who's experiencing it, and his beliefs and expectations. Of course, the placebo effect only works in very limited cases, and it's not like a glass of water told to be a miracle-cure for cancer will indeed cure the cancer in the person who's drinking it.
I didn't understand what you mean to say regarding mediation and all that though. 
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C.M. Mann
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 Re: COuld meditation be placebo effect? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#11433880 - 11/11/09 04:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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The placebo effect as I understand it is if a Doctor has a patient that thinks they are ill, but the Doctor thinks it's all in their imagination. The Doctor then has a tool in a placebo, to use that imagination to make the patient feel better. I don't think meditation fits that criteria. 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: COuld meditation be placebo effect? [Re: C.M. Mann]
#11434168 - 11/11/09 05:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Not quite. There is evidence that the placebo effect actually can effect the course of a real illness. So you are half right.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Fraggin
Multi-Faceted
Registered: 01/05/05
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Quote:
Trompe le Monde said:
I understand that meditation is subjective, but I am wondering if there is a borderline between going really deep or just having a placebo effect because you believe in the idea of meditation.
Answer to your question.
Yes.
However, Meditation has been studied in scientific detail. There are scientific facts involved. Also, Daniel G Amen has conducted EEG readings on tibetan monks and have found evidence that their waking brainwave patterns have been augmented greatly because of their practice.
Also, what is this going deep that you are talking about?
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
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Re: COuld meditation be placebo effect? [Re: Icelander]
#11434337 - 11/11/09 05:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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But how much of that "real illness", was first caused by patient anxiety? If a professional runs into a person like this; should the patient get a placebo, or should they get psychological therapy. And if they get this therapy, would that be more likely to be as effective or less?
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Trompe le Monde
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Re: COuld meditation be placebo effect? [Re: Fraggin]
#11434343 - 11/11/09 05:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fraggin said:
Also, what is this going deep that you are talking about?
I just meant going deep in your mind through meditation, reaching a level of total awareness and relaxation 
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Silversoul
Holon
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The placebo effect is basically the mind's power to heal the body. So yes, meditation is the placebo effect, but without the delusions that go with it.
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Ahimsa
Registered: 01/11/07
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Meditation can become a form of 'sleeping'. The dreamlike state is easily confused with 'inner experiences'. One should try and become meditative throughout the day. Then meditation is not another illusionary activity but a real connecting of oneself with the world...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: COuld meditation be placebo effect? [Re: Ahimsa]
#11434661 - 11/11/09 06:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think you have a most reasonable take on meditation and it's potential.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
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Re: COuld meditation be placebo effect? [Re: Icelander]
#11435181 - 11/11/09 07:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
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Re: COuld meditation be placebo effect? [Re: Icelander]
#11435349 - 11/11/09 07:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Its impossible to measure how reasonable a point is. The only true measure of an idea is its ability to bring people pleasure. Unless you can prove to me that you have an authority on pleasure, your statement is like dust in the wind...sorry icy, nothing personal, just shits and giggles anyways.
Meditation and medication - are they synonymous....besides the fact that they sound similair, no.
If meditation relaxes it is medicative, if it does not, it is illness inducing.
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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Spiralout112
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Re: COuld meditation be placebo effect? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#11435541 - 11/11/09 08:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Your question is terrible. Any effect even very small could still be called meditation, once you get good at it though the effect is very powerful and not debatable in any way.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,860
Loc: underbelly
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Re: COuld meditation be placebo effect? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#11435595 - 11/11/09 08:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Its impossible to measure how reasonable a point is.
Not personally it's not and that's what I was doing. I could care less if you agree.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Quote:
Trompe le Monde said:
and if it is placebo for someone, would it still be meditation?
I understand that meditation is subjective, but I am wondering if there is a borderline between going really deep or just having a placebo effect because you believe in the idea of meditation.
From Placebo - Wikipedia:
Quote:
A placebo is a sham medical intervention. In one common placebo procedure, a patient is given an inert sugar pill, told that it may improve his/her condition, but not told that it is in fact inert. Such an intervention may cause the patient to believe the treatment will change his/her condition; and this belief does indeed sometimes have a therapeutic effect, causing the patient's condition to improve. This phenomenon is known as the placebo effect.
Placebos are widely used in medicine, and the placebo effect is a pervasive phenomenon; in fact, it is part of the response to any active medication. However, the deceptive nature of the placebo creates tension between the Hippocratic Oath and the honesty of the doctor-patient relationship. The placebo effect points to the importance of perception and the brain's role in physical health.
Since the publication of Henry K. Beecher's The Powerful Placebo in 1955 the phenomenon has been considered to have clinically important effects. This view was notably challenged when in 2001 a systematic review of clinical trials concluded that there was no evidence of clinically important effects, except perhaps in the treatment of pain and continuous subjective outcomes. The article received a flurry of criticism, but the authors later published a Cochrane review with similar conclusions. Most studies have attributed the difference from baseline till the end of the trial to a placebo effect, but the reviewers examined studies which had both placebo and untreated groups in order to distinguish the placebo effect from the natural progression of the disease.
According to this definition, it is only a placebo if it is a "sham medical intervention". 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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