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 charvo
JOURNEYMAN
Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 654
Loc: In The Hand Of The World
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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 about the free wedge threat. 
#11085915 - 09/18/09 10:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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question is. In general are members trading clones, or isolates/ multispore. What?
I only ask cause I'm getting Ready to conduct some trails over the winter, and i would like to preferably start with spores or an isolate. I would like to stay away form clones at this point.
I have some slants from I don't even remember were or when , but they have been in the refrigerator for about 5 yrs. I am going to try to revive them this weekend. I am unsure of their nature as well. I was looking at buying spore prints, but thought I'd ask around here first. I have alot to trade i just need to make sure their all viable first. All the slants seem to be in great condition to this day. No doubt I'll get them going again. I don't rly have a problem with buying prints, but i thought id ask here first. I dont see alot of prints for trade in the gourmet and medicinal category over in the free print thread. It all about the cube's over there.
The question remains should a buy spores or revive the cultures i have and start trading in the wedge threat. Also i dont want to trade crap just to get what i need. just trying to be honest with everyone. Thanks
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 Jef
Out-of-work Sex Slave
Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 739
Loc: near Duncan, BC
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Re: about the free wedge threat. [Re: charvo]
#11086466 - 09/19/09 12:47 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Working with spores or isolates is like playing the lottery. You could win big, but it's fairly unlikely.
People are usually using clones, because they came from a really good mushroom. Later mushrooms from this clone are part of the same organism and so dependably carry the characteristics of the donor.
Spores and isolates result from mushroom sex  and we all know beautiful parents who have ugly kids. If you use spores and isolates, you may be wasting your time on ugly kids.
With cloning, you just make a lot of copies once you get a beautiful kid, so you know they'll all be perfect.
Good growing
Jef
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I am my own lab rat.
“Young lady!” cried Mr. Grout, very much appalled. “It ill becomes a young person of no consequence, such as yourself, to go about slandering great people in all the dignity of their property!”
- Mrs. Mabb, The Ladies of Grace Adieu, by Susanna Clarke
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 7 days, 12 hours
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Re: about the free wedge threat. [Re: charvo]
#11086504 - 09/19/09 01:01 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Mostly, people want spores for cubes because they are legal and culture is not. If you've ever done an isolate from MS you'd know how many non-fruiting strains there are. Last time I did an isolate test run 1/3 of the cakes were non-fruiting.
Much of the strain development you may want could come from printing species that fruit under the desired conditions and then testing the isolates in the same conditions. However, work like this will take generations (of mushrooms not humans) so that you know. Starting from spore may be a shortcut to this but it's a good idea to have a stock culture that works to start from.
Also, it's going to be a given that you will have to get someone to make a print specially for you or find the odd person who has an assortment of them.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Jef
Out-of-work Sex Slave
Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 739
Loc: near Duncan, BC
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Just so we're clear about this:
If somebody made a clone of you,
He's not your brother, he's not your child - he's you. He is not a new organism, only a copy.
His DNA, found in the wrong circumstance could send you to prison. Yours could send him to prison.
There are no "generations" among clones. Their cell lines are all the same age if kept under the same conditions.
Spores and isolates = different DNA and a new organism, and possibly very different characteristics. I like pissing around with wastes of time, and I have the time to waste, but if what you want is good mushrooms with reasonable certainty, stick to clones.
Now it gets weird.
Cells can divide only a limited amount of times. THere is a string of many little pieces on the end of each DNA strand called telomeres. Each time the cell copies itself, the very last of these (many, many) telomeres is NOT COPIED. It would be possible to find out exactly how many times a cell line had divided since germinating from spore by counting the telomeres.
When there are few telomeres left, the culture won't fruit anymore, when there are none left, it'll die. THis process is called senescence. This is why we die of old age too.
Let's say you clone a mushroom to agar.
You inoculate it to grains, then put the agar in the fridge. You grow the grains out and spawn it to substrate, and fruit mushrooms.
The mushroom's cells, having divided many times since being inoculated, are now much "older" in a biological sense than those on agar in the fridge. The cells of the fruitbodies have many less telomeres left than the cells on the agar.
In the fridge the cells on agar divide slowly, so that culture would be "younger" and more vigorous than a clone made from the latest flush of mushrooms. These cells have more telomeres still left.
If you froze the culture, and it lived through it, it would still have all the telomeres that it had when you froze it. In a biological sense, time had stopped for these cells.
How's that for a mindbender ? Ain't nature wonderful ?
Can you tell that I obsess about stuff like this ?
Good growing
Jef
P.S. I'm not sure, but I would guess that cultures that grew slowly on account of poor nutrition might also maintain their vigor longer. OTher opinions welcome on this subject.
There is a line of cancer cells called HeLa cells. They were collected from a tumor on a lady named Henrietta Lacks. She died in 1951 from this same tumor. These cells are immortal because they have "active telomerase" an enzyme that copies all of their telomeres, every time. They have become a common contminant in almost every culture of human cells everywhere. It is estimated that the combined weight of all the HeLa cells growing in Petri dishes around the world exceeds by many times the entire weight of Ms. Lacks when she was alive. IT is also considered by many to be an entirely new life form. WHat do you think ?
Edited by Jef (09/19/09 02:50 AM)
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 7 days, 12 hours
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Re: about the free wedge threat. [Re: Jef]
#11086712 - 09/19/09 01:57 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
P.S. I'm not sure, but I would guess that cultures that grew slowly on account of poor nutrition might also maintain their vigor longer. OTher opinions welcome on this subject.
Nay way. Cultures that had poor growth due to malnutrition should loose their vigor. Like cultures that are kept in honey LCs (if kept from being left so long as they become contaminated) for long periods of metabolic activity can loose important characteristics. I'm pretty sure I remember hearing about something similar in GGMM or TMC. However, that exact example is used by knowledgeable persons on this sight as well.
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (09/19/09 01:59 AM)
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Jef
Out-of-work Sex Slave
Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 739
Loc: near Duncan, BC
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Quote:
P.S. I'm not sure, but I would guess that cultures that grew slowly on account of poor nutrition might also maintain their vigor longer. OTher opinions welcome on this subject.
Nay way. Cultures that had poor growth due to malnutrition should loose their vigor.
Good point although I never read that.
I wasn't talking about extreme starvation, just sub-par nutrition.
I wonder if slightly retarded cultures restore with good nutrition ?
I know a lot of cultivators use somewhat nutrient poor agar media to delay senescence. I wonder if they are doing the right thing?
OF course one can be unhealthy for reasons other than old age.
--------------------
I am my own lab rat.
“Young lady!” cried Mr. Grout, very much appalled. “It ill becomes a young person of no consequence, such as yourself, to go about slandering great people in all the dignity of their property!”
- Mrs. Mabb, The Ladies of Grace Adieu, by Susanna Clarke
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 7 days, 12 hours
|
Re: about the free wedge threat. [Re: Jef]
#11087032 - 09/19/09 04:22 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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nutrient poor agar is likely to slow growth rather than delay senescence. I am rather skeptical that it would be a "good way" to slow senescence, though I can think of a couple other reasons to do it that would make more sense. Like cheapness, slowing growth so as to make growth observation easier, and whatever other reason someone could dream up for it. Further, there are infinitely better ways to achieve what you describe through efficient lab procedure.
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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charvo
JOURNEYMAN
Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 654
Loc: In The Hand Of The World
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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|
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Mostly, people want spores for cubes because they are legal and culture is not. If you've ever done an isolate from MS you'd know how many non-fruiting strains there are. Last time I did an isolate test run 1/3 of the cakes were non-fruiting.
Much of the strain development you may want could come from printing species that fruit under the desired conditions and then testing the isolates in the same conditions. However, work like this will take generations (of mushrooms not humans) so that you know. Starting from spore may be a shortcut to this but it's a good idea to have a stock culture that works to start from.
Also, it's going to be a given that you will have to get someone to make a print specially for you or find the odd person who has an assortment of them.
scavengertype thanks for answering the posted questions. I have had average success starting from spore, and creating several isolates. After continuing with mini trail of those selected the result were just average. But it was a lot of fun just doing it. I have also cloned many, and as stated in the post i've had those slants in storage for about 4-6 yrs now. I'm not counting on them at this point. need new stock
I have all winter to develop a good fruiting strain. I'd rather do it myself than spend 100$ on a slant. If there is anyone that has a collection of prints or has sometime to make a few. (any pleurotus species, shittake,).
I have gentamycine 10ml vials,and benlate in powder form I can only spear about 10ml of the benlate(mold inhibitor). I also have cefazoin sodium(bacteria inhibitor) which is powder form it must be diluted. I'd be willing to trade some of this for the prints i need.
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