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 Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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 Spiritual Leaps 
#10343669 - 05/15/09 03:19 PM (4 years, 7 days ago) |
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I would very much like to live with more trust in something greater than myself. I'm tired of playing it so safe. My whole life has revolved around playing by the rules in order to exact changes from within. I've always placed belief in being shown the right path, and I reflect back on the path in this way, pin pointing times in my life which I feel were controlled by influences outside myself. These influences always seem to have allowed me to arrive where I end up.
I find myself once again at such a point. I have just achieved a long desired goal, but I now find myself feeling empty. The chase of the dream was fun, and the achievement of it exhilarating, but the after effects are draining. I discovered an illusion of myself so large that I've lost all motivation to pursue this angle any further. Perhaps it's simply a transition period, perhaps it's time for a change of direction. Somewhere along the line, it seems that the lure of the material started to shift my view away from the spiritual ends I was originally seeking. When I finally got my reward, I was fulfilled materially, but not spiritually, and the emptiness resulted.
To counter this, I feel strongly that I should reject that which is material. As I type that, thoughts pop into my head about failure, losing what I've gained, no longer being able to pursue other dreams, etc. It therefore feels that I do not have enough trust in that which I've always prescribed to, that I'm being led and if I only follow things will be fine. I want to take this spiritual leap, but I find myself holding back.
How does one find the trust needed?
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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: Kickle]
#10343914 - 05/15/09 04:19 PM (4 years, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: that I'm being led and if I only follow things will be fine. I want to take this spiritual leap, but I find myself holding back.
How does one find the trust needed?
I try to adopt the opposite strategy: there is nobody leading me but myself and anything can happen. High expectations can lead to crushing disappointments; it's much better to hope for the best and expect for the worst.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 1 year, 1 day
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: deCypher]
#10343953 - 05/15/09 04:29 PM (4 years, 7 days ago) |
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that future thing?
it ain't real. forget it.
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fazdazzle
Wanderer
Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,796
Last seen: 4 months, 14 days
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: deCypher]
#10348023 - 05/16/09 12:18 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Kickle said: that I'm being led and if I only follow things will be fine. I want to take this spiritual leap, but I find myself holding back.
How does one find the trust needed?
I try to adopt the opposite strategy: there is nobody leading me but myself and anything can happen. High expectations can lead to crushing disappointments; it's much better to hope for the best and expect for the worst.
More and more I have been leaning this way. I generally see life as a game now (just in its ability to manipulated, not that it's unimportant) and it is full of possibilities.
If you felt empty after this material excursion, have you considered your motivations for having done it in the first place?
It seems like a feeling of emptiness could easily be misinterpreted also. Do you think you were just so used to pursuing something..having that carrot ahead of you and that pressure of the repercussions on you, that once you finished you were normal, though relative to how you felt before the achievement, you felt empty? If it persists, I would wonder...but if it's just for a few days I would guess you're just coming back to baseline.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: deCypher]
#10348170 - 05/16/09 01:27 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
I try to adopt the opposite strategy: there is nobody leading me but myself and anything can happen. High expectations can lead to crushing disappointments; it's much better to hope for the best and expect for the worst.
Well, whether or not you intended to do so, you are helping with my trust issues.
I feel I am leading myself in the sense that I set the direction. I desire goal A, and I'm going to reach goal A. En route to goal A, event B happens. Event B was outside of my control, but I do have control over how I interpret event B.
The path to goal A is consistently littered with events outside of my control, but when I look back at them once I'm at the goal, I can clearly see how each event allowed me to get to the goal. Without them, I would never have reached the goal.
So there is the side of me that says that it's just the focus. Focusing on goal A allowed me to interpret what came my way in such a way that it was most beneficial in reaching my goal. But these events are more often than not, of the unusual variety. Often containing elements of extreme coincidence, or spiritual flux. The events seem to be great for interpretation, which makes me wonder 'if something else happened, could I have interpreted it the same way?' Often the answer in my mind, is no. These events are great for their timing. Moments in which they have the most impact, and the greatest chance of exacting the change required. Or pertaining to individuals whom hold enough sway over me that just enough of a nudge is present.
Certainly these shaping events occur for everyone, and everyone has an opportunity to make of the changes presented to them, what they want. But the fact that these shaping events occur the way they do, leads me to believe there is something more than myself pulling the strings. Maybe it's me pulling the strings and creating the events that I need, but that doesn't change the idea of being led if only I'll listen. In that case, I'm simply listening to the events that tell me which direction to go.
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jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: Kickle]
#10349563 - 05/16/09 07:40 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
I would very much like to live with more trust in something greater than myself.
Error Nr. 1
Textbook enslavement
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All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: jivJaN]
#10349769 - 05/16/09 08:31 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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In what way does trust = enslavement?
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jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: Kickle]
#10349846 - 05/16/09 08:48 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Dont lead me on..
And dont twist my words.
Trust doesnt have to equal enslavement.
What i was alluding to is the portion stating : "Something GREATER than MYSELF "
Its not something or someone out there.
If you give "trust" into a higher authority..
You can surely expect to be ordered around.
Your potential is limitless.
You wanna talk to god ?
Look into the mirror.
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All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: jivJaN]
#10349920 - 05/16/09 09:09 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
jivJaN said:
You wanna talk to god ?
Look into the mirror.
Be careful; pride is the root of all sin. Although I agree that following orders from some unknown greater being is a bit shady, nonetheless realizing that you are ultimately only a speck in the grand scheme of things can instill some valuable humility--something most people consider to be part and parcel of any spiritual path.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: deCypher]
#10349996 - 05/16/09 09:34 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Be careful; pride is the root of all sin.
And the concept of sin is the root of all guilt and self hatred. - resulting in hate for others... Being equal that is.
If i am "God".. what are you then ?
That would be pride.
That would be idiotic.
Im talking about freedom friend..
And freedom only comes with the realization of ones infinite potential.
And my god.. is infinity.
And i say "MY" simply as to not intrude on your beliefs..
Quote:
something most people consider to be part and parcel of any spiritual path.
I dont give shit what most people consider..
And.. i think the illusion of linearity gives forth the concept of a "path".
Latent Inhibition FTW
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All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: jivJaN]
#10350032 - 05/16/09 09:43 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
jivJaN said:
And the concept of sin is the root of all guilt and self hatred. - resulting in hate for others...
I think you're rejecting the concept of sin too fast right out of the gate; clear your mind of preconceived Christian notions and try to recognize the essence behind the idea. Would you not agree that killing others, stealing their possessions, raping their women, and not giving a fuck about anyone but yourself is fundamentally not good? We can conveniently categorize these actions as sins; it's purely a descriptive function and not an opening of the flood-gates to all kinds of self-hatred. In order to prevent ourselves from hating others, we must first recognize hating others as wrong.
Quote:
jivJaN said:
And freedom only comes with the realization of ones infinite potential.
Infinite? Hardly. We are still chained to this material world; perfect Spirit wedded with imperfect Flesh in the ultimate matrimony of the human race. We have incredible potential, don't get me wrong, but the only place you'll find truly infinite potential is in fairy-tales.
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jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: deCypher]
#10350193 - 05/16/09 10:34 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
clear your mind of preconceived Christian notions and try to recognize the essence behind the idea.
My initial response was to make that exact point.
The entire notion of one godhead figure , created for no other reason than to enslave the people under guilt and thoughts of unworthiness.
You cant honestly expect me not to get religion involved in this , when i see these patterns of thinking among people that have no other source for such an idea.
Quote:
We are still chained to this material world
Thank you for proving my point.
Quote:
but the only place you'll find truly infinite potential is in fairy-tales.
Like the bible ?
Giving this infinite potential to ONE single archetype that is understood to be somewhere out there.
Something else.. not us.
Something that requests our humility and to be utterly flabbergasted in its non existing presence ?
Who wrote the fairy tales ?
Who first thought of the concept of infinity ?
>>> ten year old child hung himself while the mother was making dinner.
The kids in school were calling him gay.
I wonder which religion they belonged to.
Trust me.. when i tell you - Its all about guilt.
Quote:
In order to prevent ourselves from hating others, we must first recognize hating others as wrong.
I beg to differ.
We must first recognize why we hate out own alleged inadequacies and what brought that kind of behavior up in the first place.
When animals kill - it isnt anger or hatred.
It is when you conveniently categorize it as such.
Convince the people they came from a monkey - VOILA !
Get back to work.
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All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: jivJaN]
#10350244 - 05/16/09 10:48 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
jivJaN said:
We must first recognize why we hate out own alleged inadequacies and what brought that kind of behavior up in the first place.
Our own "alleged" inadequacies, aye? Are you saying everyone is immaculate and shining with perfection? Clearly there exists behavior in individuals that causes suffering and pain through egotistical cruelty, and we denote such behavior as wrong while other behavior that is altruistic and selfless is denoted as right. Whether you are a Christian, a Muslim, or an atheist, you can't eliminate that internal conscience that separates out and divides the mind into these moral categories.
Or would you prefer to be like Ted Bundy, the serial killer who murdered and raped over thirty individuals? "You feel the last bit of breath leaving their body. You're looking into their eyes. A person in that situation is God!", on the joy of murder. Or how about "I don't feel guilty for anything. I feel sorry for people who feel guilt."?
Guilt is good; it is the only thing that reminds us that there are consequences to our actions. Without it you would not be fully human.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: deCypher]
#10350303 - 05/16/09 11:04 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Whether you are a Christian, a Muslim, or an atheist, you can't eliminate that internal conscience that separates out and divides the mind into these moral categories.
Moral ?
Really ?
Quote:
Are you saying everyone is immaculate and shining with perfection?
There are no mistakes.
Because nothing is perfect.
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Guilt is good
Good ?
So the complete opposite would be - Having no guilt is bad.
So.. Ted Bundy is BAD ?
Following the same logic !!!!! ------- He thinks you are BAD and is free to rape your ass and kill you.
Make sense ?
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---------------------
All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: jivJaN]
#10350351 - 05/16/09 11:18 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
jivJaN said:
Moral ?
Really ?
Yes. Are you implying you don't know the difference between right and wrong? Bear in mind I'm making no claims about the objective existence of morality; all I'm saying is that you yourself can make a subjective distinction between those actions which would make you feel guilty and those that would not.
Quote:
jivJaN said:
There are no mistakes.
Because nothing is perfect.
These are completely contradictory statements. If nothing is perfect then everything must be imperfect, implying that everything contains at least one mistake.
Quote:
jivJaN said:
Quote:
Guilt is good
Good ?
So the complete opposite would be - Having no guilt is bad.
So.. Ted Bundy is BAD ?
Following the same logic !!!!! ------- He thinks you are BAD and is free to rape your ass and kill you.
Guilt is good for a functioning, loving society. Imagine if we were to raise our children without instilling any morals; leaving them up to their whims and never correcting them when they punch others, or take sexual gratification wherever they can without the other's consent, or stab their parents in the back for not giving them enough food at last night's dinner. Fear of retaliation instills shame which ferments into guilt; only after your children have passed the pre-conventional stage of Kohlbergian morality can they move past such inhibiting emotions and do good for one another because they recognize it as such--if you live a truly virtuous life, then there is no need for guilt. But how many of us can honestly say we are living such a life?
Mr. Bundy may well in fact have believed that what he is doing was good, and that the actions of society in attempting to capture and imprison him were bad. This doesn't change the fact that we cannot let men like Mr. Bundy run loose in today's society, and to prevent the actions of likeminded nihilistic amoralists we must agree to an intersubjective concept of what is right and what is wrong. Morality may ultimately be subjective, but if we ever hope to move out of a genetically inherited paradigm of dominance and brute aggression we must strive to expand past our own limited individual perception, and recognizing which actions are beneficial to our species (right) as against those actions which are not (wrong) is absolutely crucial for this.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Mastamike1118
Stranger
Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 1,914
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: deCypher]
#10350390 - 05/16/09 11:29 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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i think my spaceship knows which way to go
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i swim but i wish i learned... the waters are somthin or other
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: jivJaN]
#10350441 - 05/16/09 11:46 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
jivJaN said:
Dont lead me on..
And dont twist my words.
Trust doesnt have to equal enslavement.
What i was alluding to is the portion stating : "Something GREATER than MYSELF "
Its not something or someone out there.
If you give "trust" into a higher authority..
You can surely expect to be ordered around.
Your potential is limitless.
You wanna talk to god ?
Look into the mirror.
I wasn't attempting to twist your words, nor to lead you on.
Instead I was placing the emphasis on what I'm trying to achieve. Trust. A spiritual leap into the unknown.
I don't presume to know what makes or who makes or why things are the way they are, I merely observe the effect it has on me. And as a result, I want to be able to trust in those effects, wherever they may spring from.
If there was a break down in this communication, I apologize.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: Kickle]
#10350460 - 05/16/09 11:54 PM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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P.S. I find the idea of trusting that what is happening, is happening for a reason, to be much more prone to prevent guilt, than to create it.
Edited by Kickle (05/16/09 11:55 PM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: Kickle]
#10350646 - 05/17/09 12:50 AM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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For clarification I feel I must make my argument in favor of guilt more concise:
Premise: Individuals either feel guilt when they make certain actions or they feel no guilt whatsoever.
Premise: If an individual lacks the capacity to feel guilt, there is no incentive available to steer this individual towards making decisions that are harmonious with promoting happiness for all sentient beings other than the fear of getting caught and incurring displeasurable repercussions.
Premise: Without the possibility of getting caught, a guilty conscience and feeling remorse for the rest of your life is the only way to deter immoral decisions.
Conclusion: Guilt is necessary for a society worth living in.
Your thoughts?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 4 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Spiritual Leaps [Re: deCypher]
#10350687 - 05/17/09 01:05 AM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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That presumes that we have the capacity to learn good/bad, but that we do not have an inherent 'goodness'.
I contend that we have an inherent desire to do good, but that we do good according to what we learn as good or bad. We act in ways we believe are good, and avoid those we believe are bad.
If there were no guilt, we would act according to what made us feel good, rather than avoiding what makes us feel bad.
Edited by Kickle (05/17/09 01:09 AM)
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