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 durka_durka420
Got Fungus?
 
Registered: 10/10/08
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 ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators 
#10243058 - 04/27/09 01:11 PM (3 years, 30 days ago) |
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ok its a silly question but say you was to extract reletivly pure mycelium discharge now would this be effective to combat say contams mid flush or while subs are flushing because isnt that what mycelium discharge does? its like the myceliums immune system so im thinking i dont know random question.....yes ive searched but as im running on 1hr of sleep right now lol i dont feel like reading 100's of posts unrelated to my question...thanks guys!
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 fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: durka_durka420]
#10243704 - 04/27/09 03:00 PM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
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Personally I doubt it. Metabolism waste is usually toxic to the organism that produces it if it accumulates in high enough levels.
Waste that is produced by organisms under stress is usually just general toxic stuff and isn't selective against anything specific.
If it had antibiotic properties it would probably be produced more often and not just in response to heat, suffocation, and over colonization.
It would be an interesting experiment to do, maybe you can be the first.
-FF
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 36,964
Loc: USA Mountain Northwest
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: fastfred]
#10244842 - 04/27/09 05:58 PM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
If it had antibiotic properties
Interesting theory. You might want to read up on penicillin and just about every other antibiotic. They're made from fungi metabolites.
In addition, anyone who's grown a bulk substrate has seen so-called metabolites all over the surface, even when temps were perfect and colonization was still not complete, and there was no stress. They're also produced to help break down substrate material. The theory that they're simply 'waste' was debunked many years ago.
My attempts to use metabolites from one mycelium network to fight contaminants in another didn't work out well. I suspect they're produced by the organism in response to specific stimuli.
RR
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www.mushroomvideos.com
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: RogerRabbit]
#10247232 - 04/28/09 12:34 AM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
Interesting theory. You might want to read up on penicillin and just about every other antibiotic. They're made from fungi metabolites.
For every antbiotic producing organism there are a thousand ones that produce nothing but metabolic waste. Even if the opposite were true there is nothing to suggest that this specific organism produces anything except metabolic waste.
Quote:
anyone who's grown a bulk substrate has seen so-called metabolites all over the surface, even when temps were perfect and colonization was still not complete, and there was no stress.
Well, I guess I'm not anyone then. "Myc piss" is rarely seen except for over-colinization or high temperatures IME. I've never seen it on any bulk substrate or on any non-mistreated myc.
Quote:
The theory that they're simply 'waste' was debunked many years ago.
I must have missed that. What specific function has it been demonstarted to serve?
As far as I've seen some people wish upon a star that it's some magic antibiotic and everyone else just sees it as "myc piss" and a sign of poor conditions.
-FF
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libertaire
liberator
Registered: 08/06/08
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: fastfred]
#10247751 - 04/28/09 04:51 AM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
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I don't get why it would be called "myc piss" if it only comes out during a stressful situation. Why would they only excrete waste in those cases. It would make more sense for them to excrete some sort of protective liquid that would increase their chances for survival. I.E. an antibiotic.
It seems like no one really knows for sure what purpose these things serve. Acting like you do doesn't make you look smart. On the contrary.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: libertaire]
#10248345 - 04/28/09 08:42 AM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
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> Acting like you do doesn't make you look smart.
WTF? Where did I say anything about knowing anything?
I'll try to use smaller words in the future, just for you.
> I don't get why it would be called "myc piss" if it
> only comes out during a stressful situation.
That's usually when metabolites appear... when something is overcolonized or overheated. Both cause too much metabolism for the environment it's in, hence the metabolic waste.
"Myc piss" is a term that has been in usage for a long time here. Whatever else is in it, it certainly IS metabolic waste, which makes "myc piss" a fair description.
Nobody's done good enough experiments to prove what all is in there, but it's definitely metabolic waste. If it has antibiotic properties also we don't know.
-FF
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bosch
Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 92
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: fastfred]
#10249537 - 04/28/09 12:40 PM (3 years, 29 days ago) |
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It's safe to assume that we can all think of mushrooms as being a product of quite a lot of evolutionary action, right? One thing about that fact that is at times easy to not pay as much attention to is that properties of organisms came about that way becuase of the coincidence that those with that trait reproduced more. So, stuff isn't nessicarily useful, or if it does happen to be, not for any intended reason by any means.
Not that I pretend to have the experience to act like I can say anything with authroity or certainty, but it's my tendancy to think that some metabolites may very well have antibiotic/anti-whatever properties, basically because they break shit down, right? That's what fungi seem to be good at in general; this would explain why they may help with substrate digestion as well, etc, and why in fact they may be more prevelant in stressful growing conditions.
With that said, it'd make sense that using metabolites accross species as RR mentioned probably wouldn't work out so hot; a successful strain likely wouldn't produce a metabolite that helped to break down it's own makeup as much possibly as another species.
And, just to toss my two cents in on the little side argument, I'll say that it does seem to be the tendancy for me to see more metabolites on bulk grows that happen to be under less ideal conditions, but yeah, I really don't have enough experience to draw a reasonable opinion from on that note.
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durka_durka420
Got Fungus?
Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 915
Loc: the south
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: bosch]
#10252157 - 04/28/09 07:39 PM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
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im going to suggest a lock on this as its going to turn into a damn flame war! respect others opinions! and dont get mad when your opinion of stuff is different! this post was not intended for flaming of others so MOD LOCK!
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libertaire
liberator
Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 4,204
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: durka_durka420]
#10252211 - 04/28/09 07:46 PM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
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Sorry if my post came off as a flame, I just don't think the research is out there to prove what people think one way or the other, so an intelligent debate on the subject would consist of nothing but speculation. Unless the research/experiments have been done, in which case, why didn't you post a link to that stuff or state your specific observations to begin with?
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
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Loc: USA Mountain Northwest
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: libertaire]
#10252756 - 04/28/09 09:08 PM (3 years, 28 days ago) |
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Sorry, I don't lock threads just because people disagree, even if it's me they disagree with.
RR
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www.mushroomvideos.com
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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psily
Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 116
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: RogerRabbit]
#10294605 - 05/05/09 11:20 PM (3 years, 21 days ago) |
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Well, I am a newbie, but I have tested the myc for its antibiotic properties - informally of course.
1. The first "test" was an accident. The circumstances conspired so that I dunked a tray just when I had a problem with a few new stinky pots (the soil mixture was not done right). So, out of curiosity used the dunking water on those stinky pots and I was very, very much surprised to discover that the smell was gone in...~12h had past when I noticed it. And it never returned.
2. On my second test I drank the water which I added to a fully colonized jar (a pint mixture of high quality grains). I simply poured boiled water into the jar (room temp of course) and let it sit for 12h. And then drained that water and drank it. Then I repeated the process the second time with the same jar. Then I did the same with 2 other jars a week later.
Well, first of all (I know lotsa newbies are wondering about this  ) there is no psilocybin there that I could taste or feel the effects of. But it does have a noticeable calming effect. (I'd suggest it to anyone having trouble falling asleep at night. During the day it does not make you sleepy but "centers" you.)
Re antibiotic: at the time I had a tooth infection (loose crown), and while waiting for the dentist appointment, I had an opportunity to test the antibiotic property of the "myc piss" in action. Before swallowing the water, I swished it for ~30 sec in the mouth. The tooth pain was gone in a few short hours and stayed away.
That was my experience and I invite you to repeat it. Of course, to really appreciate a good medicine you need to have "a problem". Otherwise, with no negative side effects you can't really tell if it worked at all 
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All mushrooms are edible but some are edible only once. 
Edited by psily (05/05/09 11:30 PM)
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: psily]
#10297121 - 05/06/09 01:09 PM (3 years, 21 days ago) |
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How does it taste BTW?
As far as the debate goes... there isn't much of one. We have no real evidence to argue over.
It's certainly possible that the metabolites have antibiotic activity, many fungi and bacteria produce antibiotics. However, most of them don't. OTOH all living organisms do produce metabolic waste.
If someone wants to perform some tests it shouldn't be all that hard. Simply isolate several types of bacteria, plate them out (spread plate or dilute and cover the surface), then spot the dishes in several spots with the metabolic waste. Then look for a zone of inhibition. If you find that it is killing the bacteria then the next step is to show that it has specific antibiotic activities and isn't simply generally toxic. The easiest way to do that is probably to show that it is effective against some bacteria but not others. For example it might be effective against gram positive, but not gram negative bacteria. Or that it is effective against bacteria but not fungi.
I hope someone here is interested in finding this out. It should really only take maybe $10 in supplies.
-FF
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psily
Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 116
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: fastfred]
#10300444 - 05/06/09 11:52 PM (3 years, 20 days ago) |
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It has hardly any taste. The very fresh water - meaning it stood less then an hour - has a strong smell/taste of the fresh mycelium. I find it pleasant. After standing for 24h, it gets a bit sweeter and just a bit sour -from grains seeping in?
BTW, all three of those jars (that I seeped in water for 24h) contammed when I later was so naive as to g2g them with the same amount of sterilized grain. (I think I got my teks mixed up - hehe).
So, the first jar that "I drank" and then g2g into a tray, got blue-green patches with a sweet fruity smell (I'm guessing Pseudomonas). The myc took over ~half the tray, but stayed away from the comtammed half. So about a week ago, I picked the worst grains from the top of the tray and sprinkled the uncolonized area with 200mg doxycycline. It seems to have help the myc: it creaped into that space but still has not colonized it fully. The fruity smell went away though.
So, I think the original idea of this thread, that a myc may be helped with an antibiotic - its own or not - has its merit. I am considering adding an antibiotic in the future when I'm worried about sterility.
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All mushrooms are edible but some are edible only once.
Edited by psily (05/07/09 12:31 AM)
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psily
Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 116
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: psily]
#10304960 - 05/07/09 08:11 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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Ok, so I just tripped and here is what "mushies told me" regarding their antibiotic properties (lol):
Quote:
Anything that grows on shit, must be able to fend off itself from bacteria, for the simple reason that shit is 90% bacteria
Lol, I'm not sure about the number, but you get the idea.
So of course they produce antibiotics, and because they work in this capacity so amazingly, I suspect that it may be even some novel type of antibiotic, the one that disrupts bacterial "quorum sensing***" (and so makes them uninvasive), rather than acting in the usual for antibiotic medicines way (i.e. interfering with replication or some important life process). But of course it could be both.
So my guess is that the "antibiotic" they produce disrupts quorum sensing and the type of bacteria they should be most efficient is the gut bacteria - and who knows some protozoa should be too -?
I base this assesement just from my experience with antibiotics - as a somethimes sick human lol - and usually it takes a while for meds to work. These guys work within short hours, and the most amazing part is that one dose is all it takes. That's very unusual for antibiotics.
*** Comment: bacteria becomes pathological, when they invade agressively. And they do that when they sense that their numbers have grown sufficiently. This is called "quorum sensing". (They sort of organize and start acting in accord rather than just minding their own business without causing much trouble.) To break up their "quorum sensing" means to break an agressive army into individual friendly soldiers (lol).
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All mushrooms are edible but some are edible only once.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: psily]
#10306007 - 05/08/09 12:11 AM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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You certainly have a vivid imagination.
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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy
The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed
"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)
I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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psily
Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 116
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: fastfred]
#10306222 - 05/08/09 01:16 AM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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I hope you're not suggesting that my experience was somehow invalid.
You shared no personal experience - accidental or intentional - with antibiotic properties of psilocybe mycelium metabolites. Apparently all you have to support your opinion is an assumption. And if this is the case, what makes your assumption more valid than mine?
At least my assumption is based on the fact: the shrooms do grow on shit, full of invasive bacteria and protozoa. How do you think they manage in such conditions?
Or do you think it's all pixie dust?
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All mushrooms are edible but some are edible only once.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: psily]
#10308204 - 05/08/09 12:42 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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You went into a long sequence of speculation, hence me saying you have a vivid imagination.
It's great to hear of your personal, anecdotal experiences. You've contributed probably as much as anyone has in the past to this topic already.
However most of your post is pretty far-fetched. Your explanation of quorum sensing is a bit skewed. And you're anthropomorphizing bacteria to quite an extent.
There's really no point in debating something like this. In the time that's already been wasted in the dozens of threads on the subject we could have done the required experiments many times over.
The fact remains that most fungi don't produce antibiotics and there's no evidence to show that our mushrooms are any different. That's not an opinion as you suggest, but a plain and simple fact.
-FF
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psily
Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 116
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: fastfred]
#10308417 - 05/08/09 01:22 PM (3 years, 19 days ago) |
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In what way my explanation of quorum sensing is skewed? (other than my anthropomorphizing, which BTW makes a better read, and which I did put into quotes in case you miss it that it was meant in good humor).
Yes I speculated that the mode of action of myc piss may be through disrupting chemical signals that make quorum sensing possible. I base it on observation how quickly it worked: if it were due the mere interference with bacterial cell division or some crucial metabolic process, the way antibiotic meds work, it could not have worked that fast. But yes, it was a speculation. I'd love to hear your ideas that would explain this better.
Quote:
The fact remains that most fungi don't produce antibiotics and there's no evidence to show that our mushrooms are any different. That's not an opinion as you suggest, but a plain and simple fact.
I see you belong to a type of a serious person who will not accept the fact that water is wet until several papers supporting this notion come out. That's your preference, but please do not put down people who trust their senses and direct experience more than you do and who do not require formal tests and equipment to make valid assessments about the world in which they live.
Thank you 
And BTW, "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,242
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: psily]
#10309109 - 05/08/09 03:52 PM (3 years, 18 days ago) |
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> In what way my explanation of quorum sensing is skewed?
You've kind of just thrown it into your explanation and it's probably the most far-fetched part of your story.
Anyhow, you've constructed an elaborate explanation for something that's not yet been demonstrated.
Your personal experience really lends nothing to this. You don't know if your toothache was related to bacteria and you don't know if drinking the myc piss actually did anything for the toothache. Such speculation is a common logical flaw. It is inherent in the human mind to make connections where none exist.
-FF
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potatonet
The scientist
Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 1,385
Loc: Far side of the moon
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Re: ok just a random question for you advanced cultivators [Re: fastfred]
#10310933 - 05/08/09 10:59 PM (3 years, 18 days ago) |
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>.<
this thread is getting angrier, this is not a battle to be fought here
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In the Quechua language of Peru there are over 1000 words for "potato"
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