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OfflineJesusChrist
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Registered: 02/19/04
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The DC Opportunity Scholarship Program (School Vouchers)
    #10163106 - 04/14/09 08:27 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Secretary of Education Arne Duncan is gutting the DC Voucher program, which allowed children from poor families to attend private schools.

I follow most of this debate from Jay P. Greene's blog.

The lowdown is that Congress inserted something into the Stimulus bill that will allow them to kill the program.  The program must come up for review and be re-approved by a Democratic Congress that is hostile to vouchers and beholden to the teacher's unions.

A report that was favorable to the DC Opportunity Scholarship Program (OSP)was delayed while Congress was debating inserting the measure that will eventually kill the program.  They gathered the data for it last spring.  It was just released on a Friday afternoon, well after it could have influenced the debate.

Arne Duncan, the Secretary of Education has gone a step further in preparation for closing down the program.  He has revoked the scholarships of all the families entering the system this year, and he is not allowing people to apply for the program next year.  The program is now all but dead.

What you had here is a program that was working in one of the worst school districts in the nation.  It is going to be scrapped and those kids will be forced back into their shitty neighborhood schools.  For the families that had won a scholarship this year they are suddenly without a school.  Many magnet schools, charter schools and school transfer deadlines have passed.  They have less options now than when they applied for the program.  They are royally screwed.

The average cost per pupil in the DC school system is around $26,555 per kid.  The cost of the vouchers was $7,500 (max, avg around $6000).  And the kids using the vouchers did better.  You figure it out.

Does anyone here on the right or the left honestly think it is a good idea for the government to have a monopoly on indoctrinating our children?

School Choice is the next part of the Civil Rights movement.  These people need to be freed from their crappy public schools.  Their parents should have more freedom in choosing the education of their children.
Over 90% of children attend public schools. Is it a good thing for the government to have a monopoly in education?
You may choose only one
Yes
No


Votes accepted from (04/14/09 08:26 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Edited by JesusChrist (04/16/09 11:44 AM)


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Quote and Links [Re: JesusChrist]
    #10163184 - 04/14/09 08:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Arne Duncan tells Science magazine about his educational choices concerning his own kids...

Quote:

“As the second education secretary with school-aged kids, where does your daughter go to school, and how important was the school district in your decision about where to live?

A.D. [Arne Duncan] : She goes to Arlington [Virginia] public schools. That was why we chose where we live, it was the determining factor. That was the most important thing to me. My family has given up so much so that I could have the opportunity to serve; I didn’t want to try to save the country’s children and our educational system and jeopardize my own children’s education.”




Looks like Arne likes school choice when he is choosing for his own children...

Don't name your children Arne.  (wtf?)

WSJ:

Democrats and Poor Kids Sitting on evidence of voucher success, and the battle of New York.

Washington Post:

Presumed DeadPolitics is driving the destruction of the District's school voucher program

Education, By Any Means

Weekly Standard:

Democratic Administration Usurping Rights of D.C. Scholarship Parents in New and Exciting Ways

Frontpage Magazine:

Congressional Democrats' War on Science

Pajamas Media:

Empty Promises on School VouchersProof that voucher programs work does nothing to stop the federal government's continuing efforts to destroy them.

Chicago Tribune

'Do what's best for kids'

Jay P. Greene's Blog

I go to Greene's blog first when looking for school voucher news.  He is pro voucher (as am I) and he does a good job of explaining why.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: JesusChrist]
    #10163197 - 04/14/09 09:01 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, JC, long time no see. Hope all is well with you.

I was reading about this yesterday.  It's is a political power play, pure and simple. Regardless of what ones believes concerning school choice, what is being done to these children is a travesty.


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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: Redstorm]
    #10163221 - 04/14/09 09:12 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

How disturbing.

The trouble with a government monopoly is the same with any monopoly - everything eventually goes to shit.

With vouchers there is competition, and our nation was founded on the idea that competition results in quality.

heres a documentary showing the faults of the public school system and teacher unions, and how vouchers and charter schools are a better alternative (Stupid in America, 45 minutes)


Anne Duncan says they moved so their kid would be in a good school district, but not everyone has that option.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

Their vial of acid, which is on the table over there, tastes vile because they're incompetent chemists.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Registered: 02/19/04
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: Redstorm]
    #10163340 - 04/14/09 09:47 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Hey, JC, long time no see. Hope all is well with you.

I was reading about this yesterday.  It's is a political power play, pure and simple. Regardless of what ones believes concerning school choice, what is being done to these children is a travesty.




I have been doing well thankyou.  Raising kids and all.  I hope all is well with you as well.  Once you get away from the messages you get a sort of inertia going.  I would like to get back here now and again because I miss the debate.  It is fun to see some of the names again.  I even chuckle when I see Anna's name up there.

As for the current situation in this post I agree what they are doing to the kids is a travesty.  My state has a voucher program and I went door to door to inform neighbors of their choices.  I know a few kids that are now enrolled because of it.  You can change the whole trajectory of their lives.  It might be the greatest public service that I ever have done.  The schools in my city are horrible.

In the DC Case, it looks like they hid the results until Congress killed the program.  They then did a document dump late on a friday to try and push out the results without even acknowledging the progress.  Not only that, but Arne Duncan put out a gag order and refused to let anyone from the DOE even talk about the report.  Can you imagine if another administration acted like that?

Harsanyi: Duncan's fundamental dishonesty

Quote:

Then the Wall Street Journal editorial board reported that the Department of Education had buried a study that illustrated unquestionable and pervasive improvement among kids who won vouchers, compared to the kids who didn't. Not only was the report disregarded, the Department of Education issued a gag order on any discussion about it.




I can't get over the fact that they issued a gag order and refused to even discuss it.  Here is a report showing progress of a government program.  It actually is working!  Nobody is allowed to talk about it, and we are going to defund it.  With all the billions that we are spending we are taking away one of the few programs that works.  Poor black children be damned.  Don't get in the way of the teacher's unions.



Like Governor Wallace in the days of the old South, the Democratic party is still working quite effectively to restrict school choice from poor black folk.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: Green_T]
    #10163350 - 04/14/09 09:50 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Green T, thanks for the vid.  I am a big fan of John Stossel.  I have never read his book(s), but I enjoy the television programs that he has made.  Can anyone recommend (or not) his books?  He has written some good columns in the past, I would think his books would be well written as well.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: JesusChrist]
    #10169950 - 04/15/09 07:43 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

eduwonk

Quote:

It’s a strange time.  Outside the usual suspects there is not a lot of excitement to save the program even as you’re really hard pressed to find anyone who thinks it’s doing any harm — except politically because it carries the message…  In other words, this episode would seem to have all the makings (race, power, politics) of a powerful moment, except it’s basically a non-moment so far…there isn’t even much of an underdog effect…





Outside of voucher proponents that live in a limited sphere of the blogosphere, nobody seems to care.  You wonder where the liberals are that constantly proport to care for all the poor black children.

more from no cynics allowed

Quote:

Now the parents of these families are really left with no choice whatsoever. For the most part, it%u2019s back to DCPS. The Quick and the Ed recently had the privilege of drawing names at a lottery drawing for a DC public charter. I have cherry-picked the heart-breaking part of the post:

Quote:

When I drew the last name for an official Pre-K berth, a woman in the crowd drew a sharp breath. I had drawn her son's best friend. She sat quietly as I started to draw the waiting list. When I hit #20, tears began to run down her face. Sometime after #50, she left the room.






The irony is that the Democrats strongly dislike such programs when they are directly benefiting low-income and minority families (i.e. their constituents). This is not important though when one of your chief sources of funding is the teacher's unions.




It is sad how desperate people are to get out of the failed government schools.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: JesusChrist]
    #10171393 - 04/15/09 11:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Outside the usual suspects there is not a lot of excitement to save the program even as you're really hard pressed to find anyone who thinks it's doing any harm?

You wonder where the liberals are that constantly proport to care for all the poor black children.



Jesus Christ, you've got to be kidding me.  Vouchers take money from public schools to help pay for private schools.  Take from the poor to support the rich.  The poor couldn't afford private school even with vouchers, so it's extremely harmful to them.


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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
                                                                 


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10172004 - 04/15/09 01:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Why don't you tell that to the poor black families in DC that are going to lose their vouchers.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: JesusChrist]
    #10172469 - 04/15/09 03:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Why don't you tell that to the poor black families in DC that are going to lose their vouchers.



Those that can afford private schools with vouchers can now look forward to more money being put into public schools and less money coming out of their pockets.  Seeing how 93% of DC voted Obama, I don't think they're the ones doing most of the complaining.


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I love how the right makes shit up about what Obama is going to do, and then scare themselves with it. - Falcon91Wolvrn03
                                                                 


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: JesusChrist]
    #10173335 - 04/15/09 05:36 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Like Governor Wallace in the days of the old South, the Democratic party is still working quite effectively to restrict school choice from poor black folk.




You white folks are a hoot.  We won't be taking advice from the party of Reagan, thanks.


--------------------
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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: TGRR]
    #10176381 - 04/16/09 06:32 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Like Governor Wallace in the days of the old South, the Democratic party is still working quite effectively to restrict school choice from poor black folk.




You white folks are a hoot.  We won't be taking advice from the party of Reagan, thanks.




Poor people have been voting for Democrats for the last fifty years....and they are still poor." -- Charles Barkley

Do you support ending vouchers because that is what the Teacher's Unions and the Democrats want?  Do you oppose vouchers because "the party of Reagan" endorses them? 

I can see why the Democratic party is loyal to the Teacher's Unions.  Just follow the money.  They do the bidding of those who pay them.  I can't see why the rest of the sheeple toe the party line.

Does it make a difference if these programs are effective? That they help people?  That they decrease the costs that we all pay?  Does the substantive evidence mean anything?


--------------------
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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: JesusChrist]
    #10176499 - 04/16/09 07:23 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I'm somewhat torn on this.

If people want to pay extra for their children to attend a private school, with extra amenities, they should be able to do so.  The tax payers shouldn't have to foot the bill so others can attend the same school.

However, public schools should be able to provide a comparable education.  The difficulty is determining whether public schools lack the resources to educate children, or whether other factors contribute, (e.g. poor family structure, apathetic students).

I'd be curious to see data on the performance of public VS. private schools.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: badchad]
    #10176621 - 04/16/09 07:57 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

> The tax payers shouldn't have to foot the bill so others can attend the same school.

Even better... tax payers shouldn't have to foot the bill for anybody to attend school.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: Seuss]
    #10176701 - 04/16/09 08:17 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Even better... tax payers shouldn't have to foot the bill for anybody to attend school.




I'm still of the belief that large-scale, public education providing the masses with the most basic skills (e.g. reading, writing, arithmetic) is of great societal benefit.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: badchad]
    #10176716 - 04/16/09 08:21 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Is that belief backed by any support of its effectiveness?


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: badchad]
    #10176765 - 04/16/09 08:30 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Since I have touted Jay P. Greene's blog on this thread, I thought I would throw in a link to an article that he authored in today's Wall Street Journal.

The Union War on Charter Schools As New York shows, they want to kill any education choice.
By Jay P. Greene

Quote:

Eva Moskowitz, former chair of the New York City Council education committee and now a charter school operator, has characterized this new push against charters as a "backlash" led by "a union-political-educational complex that is trying to halt progress and put the interests of adults above the interests of children." She is right. If the union-political-education complex succeeds in depriving charter schools of funding and burdening them with regulations, children really will be harmed.

The highest quality studies have consistently shown that students learn more in charter schools. In New York City, Stanford economist Caroline Hoxby found that students accepted by lottery to charter schools were significantly outpacing the academic progress of their peers who lost the lottery and were forced to return to district schools.

Florida State economist Tim Sass and colleagues found that middle-school students at charters in Florida and Chicago who continued into charter high schools were significantly more likely to graduate and go on to college than their peers who returned to district high schools because charter high schools were not available.

The most telling study is by Harvard economist Tom Kane about charter schools in Boston. It found that students accepted by lottery at independently operated charter schools significantly outperformed students who lost the lottery and returned to district schools. But students accepted by lottery at charters run by the school district with unionized teachers experienced no benefit


.

I think we need a combination of more charter schools and more voucher programs.  We need to increase choice for parents and children and competition to a failing system.

The benefits of choice and breaking the government monopoly was summed up in a passage from a recent Walter Williams article in The Freeman:

Quote:

Better for Poor People, Too

You might say, “That’s okay, Williams, if you have enough dollar votes. But what about poor people?” Poor people are far better served in the market arena than the political arena. Check this out. If you visit a poor neighborhood, you will see some nice clothing, some nice cars, some nice food, and maybe even some nice homes—no nice schools. Why not at least some nice schools? The explanation is simple. Clothing, cars, food, and houses are allocated through the market mechanism. Schools are allocated through the political mechanism. By the way, if you are a member of a minority, it is in your interest to minimize those decisions over your life made in the political arena, where the majority rules


.

He goes on to talk about how private choices tend to cause less tension that public (and universal) choices...

Quote:

There is another unappreciated feature of the market arena. It reduces the potential for human conflict. Different Americans have different and intense preferences for cars, food, clothing, and entertainment. When is the last time you heard about Chrysler lovers fighting with Lexus lovers? It seldom if ever happens. Why? Those who love Chryslers get what they want, and those who love Lexuses get what they want, and each can live in peace with one another.

It is a different story in government-provided education. Some parents wish for their children to recite a morning prayer in schools. Other parents are repulsed by the idea. The fact that education is produced by government means there is either going to be prayer in school or no prayer in school. Parents must enter into conflict with one another. Why? If, for example, the parent who wishes for prayers in school loses the political battle, that parent will not have his wishes met. Of course he can send his child to a non-government school that has morning prayers, but through the tax code he is forced to continue paying for school services for which he has no use.




Thomas Sowell has made the same argument with the racially segregated busing systems of the old South.  They never had segregated busing until the government came into play...

Rosa Parks: Pursuit of Profit vs. Racism

Quote:

Why was there racially segregated seating on public transportation in the first place? "Racism" some will say -- and there was certainly plenty of racism in the South, going back for centuries. But racially segregated seating on streetcars and buses in the South did not go back for centuries.

Far from existing from time immemorial, as many have assumed, racially segregated seating in public transportation began in the South in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Those who see government as the solution to social problems may be surprised to learn that it was government which created this problem.

Many, if not most, municipal transit systems were privately owned in the 19th century and the private owners of these systems had no incentive to segregate the races.

These owners may have been racists themselves but they were in business to make a profit -- and you don't make a profit by alienating a lot of your customers. There was not enough market demand for Jim Crow seating on municipal transit to bring it about.

It was politics that segregated the races because the incentives of the political process are different from the incentives of the economic process. Both blacks and whites spent money to ride the buses but, after the disenfranchisement of black voters in the late 19th and early 20th century, only whites counted in the political process.

It was not necessary for an overwhelming majority of the white voters to demand racial segregation. If some did and the others didn't care, that was sufficient politically, because what blacks wanted did not count politically after they lost the vote.

The incentives of the economic system and the incentives of the political system were not only different, they clashed. Private owners of streetcar, bus, and railroad companies in the South lobbied against the Jim Crow laws while these laws were being written, challenged them in the courts after the laws were passed, and then dragged their feet in enforcing those laws after they were upheld by the courts.

These tactics delayed the enforcement of Jim Crow seating laws for years in some places. Then company employees began to be arrested for not enforcing such laws and at least one president of a streetcar company was threatened with jail if he didn't comply.




Take a look around you and think about your favorite things in life.  Where do they come from?  Do they come from the Government?  What about your favorite products and services?  All around us we are surrounded by evidence of Adam Smith's invisible hand, evidence that with a lack of coersion mankind will spontaneously configure itself to meet human demand.  It happens again and again and the evidence is all around us.

Why would a service like education be any different?  Why would we need a government monopoly on education?  I think most of us can see how giving the government a monopoly on indroctinating our children could be dangerous. 

Teacher's unions represent their own interests.  They work in the interest of teachers and not children.  Democrats claim to care about "the children" but pretty is as pretty does.  Democrats are working for the interests of the teachers unions who pay them.  To hell with the children.  You see it when they move to unionize Charter Schools and bring them into the fold.  You see it when they shut down voucher programs for poor black children in Washington DC.  I don't know how any self respecting liberal can look past the it.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: Seuss]
    #10176806 - 04/16/09 08:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> The tax payers shouldn't have to foot the bill so others can attend the same school.

Even better... tax payers shouldn't have to foot the bill for anybody to attend school.




We didn't always have public schools in their current form in this country, and people were still literate, perhaps even moreso than today...

If Department of Education was abolished on a federal level it wouldn't stop us from being educated.  Even if States got out of the business I can't see schools closing.  On a local level all across the nation people believe in education and they would fund it.  School vouchers are one way of funding education.  Charter schools are another.  The traditional public school model had become somewhat universal and I think that model needs to be changed.

Education isn't going away, it just needs to be reformed and changed.  Parents need more choices and better quality.  They shouldn't be mired in bad government schools.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: JesusChrist]
    #10176807 - 04/16/09 08:43 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

> Teacher's unions represent their own interests.  They work in the interest of teachers and not children.

Teacher's unions work in the interest of the teacher's union, not the teachers and not the children.


--------------------
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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Quote and Links [Re: Seuss]
    #10176848 - 04/16/09 08:52 AM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Even better... tax payers shouldn't have to foot the bill for anybody to attend school.




I'm still of the belief that large-scale, public education providing the masses with the most basic skills (e.g. reading, writing, arithmetic) is of great societal benefit.




I don't know what you mean by "large-scale".

I think that we are better off with a well educated public.  I am for the people being educated.  The government currently funds over 90% of the pupils.  I would like to change the way that government funds education.  What I don't want is the government to be in control of education and have a monopoly in the education market.  I think that this model has failed.

Why would it matter to me if a parent was given a variety of choices?  One size fits all generally isn't good for such and independent and individualistic nation.  When you say "large scale" I think of a processing plant.


--------------------
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Everything Mushrooms
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