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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs
    #10125145 - 04/07/09 08:19 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

This kind of posturing makes me so incredibly angry.  I understand that members of Congress are beholden to their constituents to attempt to secure as much funding for them as they can, and I understand why that is.  But when it comes to things like military budgets financial concerns should take a back seat to the safety of the country.

If anyone isn't familiar with this particular issue, the gist of is that the President and Gen. Gates have just released a tentative plan for the allocation of the upcoming year's military budget.  They have, correctly I believe, identified that the major thrust of this budget should be towards weapons systems and training that are applicable to the counter-insurgency and anti-terrorist operations that the military is currently involved in and which are the primarily foreseen conflicts in the near future.

But Congress is screaming bloody murder about the cutting of programs that provide jobs and income to their particular districts.  One of the biggest cuts is the Air Force's F-22 Raptor, which costs something like 300 million dollars per plane and is built in 40 different states.  The purpose of this weapons system is to face off in a dog-fighting environment against the top air forces in the world, whom we are not in conflict with now or will be in the near future.  Similarly opposed by Congress are the cuts to the Navy's Stealth Destroyer program, which again are to be used primarily in a State vs. State conflict that is not likely to occur soon.

I guess my point for making this post is to query the politics nerds here on what you think of this.  Is the President correct in his priorities, or do you believe the current force allocation is the correct one?  Do you believe Congress is correct in attempting to influence the budget according the jobs created and lost, rather than for reasons of national security?  Is the former more important at this particular time?

Here's a link to an article with more discussion on this topic.

Quote:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/07/defense-cuts-prompt-protests-lawmakers-concerned-job-loss/

With Defense Secretary Robert Gates proposing broad cuts in Pentagon spending, a new war over the president's budget has begun.

While critics already are warning that the plan could compromise U.S. security, the greater resistance appears to be coming from lawmakers worried that the cuts threaten thousands of jobs in their states.

Senators and representatives from Georgia, Connecticut, Missouri and other states that house divisions for defense manufacturing were quick to rebuke Gates and said they would fight to retain the programs that have been job engines for their constituents.

"As we face one of the most trying economic times in recent history, it seems counter-intuitive to take steps that will eliminate high-paying, specialized jobs that are critical to our nation's defense," Rep. Phil Gingrey, R-Ga., said in a written statement that warned the Pentagon was "putting thousands of good manufacturing jobs at risk."

The concerns set up a much more concentrated and localized fight over Obama's budget. Republicans earlier complained that his budget blueprint would produce deep deficits and add unwieldy amounts of money to the national debt, but they kept their criticism of the plan relatively broad.

But with so many billions of dollars and thousands of jobs at stake in the Pentagon budget, lawmakers on the both sides of the aisle are taking a hard look at how the defense proposals uniquely will affect those who voted them into office.

One of the most significant cuts Gates wants to make is to end the F-22 fighter jet, halting production at 187 jets, which the Pentagon has almost reached.

Lockheed Martin, which produces the $140 million jets, has warned that halting production of the F-22 threatens more than 90,000 jobs.

Georgia lawmakers in particular took a stand against the announcement, because most of the jets are built in Marietta, Ga., and Fort Worth, Texas. Boeing Co., which also is taking a hit under Gates' budget, manufactures the wings and others parts for the F-22 in Seattle. And the engines are supplied by Pratt & Whitney, a United Technologies Corp. unit in Middletown, Conn.

Sens. Saxby Chambliss and Johnny Isakson, both Republicans from Georgia, released a joint statement in opposition to the cuts.

Chambliss called the move "imprudent," and pledged to work to "overturn" Gates' recommendation to end F-22 production.

"This fight is not finished," he said.

Isakson accused the administration of wanting to "eliminate 2,000 jobs in Marietta" at a time when unemployment is rising.

Jeff Goen, president of the union representing Lockheed's employees in metro Atlanta, said layoffs are inevitable unless Congress restores the fighter jet program.

Matthew Perra, a spokesman for Pratt & Whitney, said that without additional F-22 aircraft orders, the company will be forced to halt orders from suppliers within months.

United Technologies CEO Louis Chenevert has said the diversified manufacturer may cut 2,000 to 3,000 jobs in Connecticut if the Pentagon cancels production of the F-22.

While ending the F-22 program, Gates announced that Lockheed's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter would be accelerated. He's recommending doubling the number on order to 30 and increasing funding from $6.8 billion to $11.2 billion. He said the Pentagon ultimately wants to buy 2,443 of them.

The Pentagon said there are already 38,000 employees working on the F-35, and that the number would shoot to 82,000 in fiscal 2011.

But Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman said that by cutting F-22 production, "our industrial base will suffer a major blow before the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter reaches full-rate production.

"This would result in the loss of thousands of jobs in Connecticut -- the skilled workers we will need to support the F-35 in just a few years, but who may no longer be available," he said in a written statement.

The F-22 cuts aren't the only ones riling lawmakers.

Gates also called for an end to production of Boeing's C-17 cargo planes. Plans to build a new helicopter for the president and a helicopter to rescue downed pilots also would be canceled.

The Army's $160 billion Future Combat Systems modernization program would lose its armored vehicles. Plans to build a shield to defend against missile attacks by rogue states also would be scaled back.

Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., complained that an end to production of the C-17, built mainly in Long Beach, would cost 5,000 jobs.

"It's absurd that this administration would be spending billions to allegedly stimulate the economy with temporary jobs while canceling aerospace contracts that are currently providing thousands of high quality jobs, particularly in southern California. It totally reflects a distorted value system," he said in a statement.

Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., on Monday also said the end of C-17 production, and well as a recommendation to build fewer F/A-18 jets than he says are needed, would have a "severe impact" on the St. Louis job market. He said 4,000 employees in St. Louis are working on the F/A-18, while 1,800 in the city are working on the C-17.

Benjamin Friedman, a research fellow in defense at the Cato Institute, said the inevitable job losses are what make cutting defense spending so politically difficult.

But he said Gates' proposed increases in other defense programs could help soften the blow.

"When you cut programs you're always trying to deal with that concentrated interest and find a way to buy them off," Friedman said.

Several lawmakers have praised Gates' budget as a level-headed approach to a changing national security picture.

Gates said Monday his $534 billion budget proposal represents a "fundamental overhaul" in defense acquisition and reflects a shift in priorities from fighting conventional wars to the newer threats U.S. forces face from insurgents in places such as Afghanistan.

He anticipates a political fight, but urged lawmakers to put the interest of the country above the interests of their districts.

"There's no question that a lot of these decisions will be controversial," Gates said. "My hope is that as we have tried to do here in this building -- that the members of Congress will rise above parochial interests and consider what is in the best interest of the nation as a whole."




Discuss amongst yourselves, please.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10125430 - 04/07/09 08:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

"It's absurd that this administration would be spending billions to allegedly stimulate the economy with temporary jobs while canceling aerospace contracts that are currently providing thousands of high quality jobs, particularly in southern California. It totally reflects a distorted value system," he said in a statement.



While I'd like to see less spending for the military (as long as the money is returned to ONLY those who pay taxes) I have to agree with the above statement (although I'd not limit it to California).

The Presidents new copter should be canceled. It's absurd that future Presidents will be flying in a foreign made piece of equipment.


--------------------
“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims.  Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it.  Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #10125650 - 04/07/09 09:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Guess what?  We're fucking BROKE.  It turns out that there IS actually a fucking bottom of the bucket, and we've hit it.  Thanks, Bush, Obama, Pelosi, Cantor, and all the other jackasses we sent to Washington.

Sorry.  No defense jobs or F22s, etc.  Morgan Stanley needed to give their losers some bonuses.

HAW HAW!


--------------------
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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10125662 - 04/07/09 09:18 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:

But Congress is screaming bloody murder about the cutting of programs that provide jobs and income to their particular districts.  One of the biggest cuts is the Air Force's F-22 Raptor, which costs something like 300 million dollars per plane and is built in 40 different states.  The purpose of this weapons system is to face off in a dog-fighting environment against the top air forces in the world, whom we are not in conflict with now or will be in the near future. 




And WHY do we not need things like the F22 Raptor?  Because we friggin' HAVE things like the F22 Raptor.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: TGRR]
    #10125679 - 04/07/09 09:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

We have *actual* F-22s.

Just not the several hundred the military was requesting.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10125704 - 04/07/09 09:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
We have *actual* F-22s.

Just not the several hundred the military was requesting.




Well, sure.  Because we'll never need more than a hundred or so.

Right?


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: TGRR]
    #10125795 - 04/07/09 09:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It's not like this is the "Infinity" military budget.

They do this every four years.

Who will we be fighting in that time who could conceivably destroy hundreds of our top-of-the-line fighters?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10125835 - 04/07/09 09:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:


Who will we be fighting in that time who could conceivably destroy hundreds of our top-of-the-line fighters?






--------------------
“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims.  Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it.  Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10125846 - 04/07/09 09:39 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
It's not like this is the "Infinity" military budget.

They do this every four years.

Who will we be fighting in that time who could conceivably destroy hundreds of our top-of-the-line fighters?





Last I checked, North Korea has bags of SAMs.


--------------------
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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: TGRR]
    #10125904 - 04/07/09 09:44 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, 20 year old ones.

I would imagine their equipment is pretty similar to that of Iraq, and I don't remember how many planes we lost, but it was likely something in the teens, if that.

And none of those were F-22s.


Old and obsolete Soviet bloc or ChiCom defenses will not pose a threat to this generation of fighter/bombers.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10125971 - 04/07/09 09:55 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I say cut the shit out. Fuck the jobs. We are broke. No unesecary funding! Please.

On a somewhat related note, I love fighter jets and the Raptor owns the sky bitches!!! :yesnod:


Wikipedia says 135 have been built, and honestly these things are so bad ass that we definitely don't need more of them.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10126848 - 04/07/09 11:51 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Yes, 20 year old ones.





The Sheffield and the Atlantic Conveyor were both sunk by 20 year old Exocet missiles.

Just saying.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10129096 - 04/08/09 12:27 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Guns and bullets are the American way and they have gotten us this far. Come on man don't quit five minutes before the miracle. :guns:


--------------------

"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous

“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Both Parties Decry New Military Budget, Says Will Cut Jobs [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #10129288 - 04/08/09 01:00 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:


Who will we be fighting in that time who could conceivably destroy hundreds of our top-of-the-line fighters?








:lol: Win.


--------------------


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