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 botasi
The Laughing Man
 
Registered: 09/30/07
Posts: 11
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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 narc troubles
#8338747 - 04/28/08 06:37 PM (6 months, 20 days ago) |
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So a friend of a friend applied for a job. He knew he had a urine test so tried getting clean (from mj) but he failed a home disposable piss test the day before. So he decided to ask a semi-close friend to supply him with some clean urine. He supplied the piss and then went to the job interview, it turns out they didnt even test him at this time, but will definately have one in the future.
So here's where the story gets fucked up; he later found out that the guy who supplied the piss is working as an informant 
He supposedly printed out an internet conversation between the two of them and even voice recorded a brief conversation that took place between the two of them when he went to pick up the piss. The friend is obviously not using any drugs and trying to maximize his chances of pissing clean, but heres my question...does anybody know the legal repercussions from this? A
fter he found out that the police might be involved he started fucking around with the narc saying things along the lines of "oh hey man I need some shit for a fecal test can you help me out?" trying to play like the whole thing was a joke...He doesnt know if that will really hold up against the law if it came down to it, but figured it couldnt hurt.
I'm assuming since they didnt actually catch him trying to use fake piss they cant really prove anything. In my state there is a law against eavesdropping which I believe would make the voice-recording a felony. He definately will not go to the test with a bag of clean piss or anything because he's sure that is illegal.
Also, if there isnt any real danger or law problems here, he'd like to know of any ways to fuck this narc up...any suggestions?
Edited by botasi (04/29/08 04:49 AM)
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 Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 94,956
Loc: S.F.I.G.E.L.
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 Re: narc troubles [Re: botasi]
#8338835 - 04/28/08 06:53 PM (6 months, 20 days ago) |
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all states have laws against eaves dropping, some states allow
recorded phone calls as long as one of the parties is aware the
conversation is being recorded, other states do not allow it at
all, there are no states that allow third party recordings when
the principals are unaware of the recordings
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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Re: narc troubles [Re: botasi]
#8338841 - 04/28/08 06:55 PM (6 months, 20 days ago) |
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I would have him not act like he knows the guy was a narc, if he asks, just tell him he doesn't need it, and don't smoke.
I doubt anyone will care about this. I've heard of some laws against messing w/ drug tests, but who knows, chekc your state's laws.
The only thing they could get you with is attempt or something if its even against the law. In conspiracy cases, I believe its an affirmative defesne to voluntarily leave the conspiracy before the illegal act is commited. So if that applies, unless they can show that you knew the guy was a narc, then you should be cool. But figure out if its even against the law first.
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tak
geo's henchman
Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 2,675
Loc: nowhereland
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Re: narc troubles [Re: johnm214]
#8339972 - 04/28/08 10:56 PM (6 months, 20 days ago) |
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Who cares. Forget it or stab him it doesnt matter.
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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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fastfred
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 4,360
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: narc troubles [Re: tak]
#8342046 - 04/29/08 01:11 PM (6 months, 20 days ago) |
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It's highly unlikely that it's against the law to cheat a piss test in your state. How would they catch you anyways? Cheating a pee test is easy. If you somehow fail (too hot or cold, etc.) then all that happens is that you fail to complete the piss test. In most cases you can just try again at a later time.
As for the narc, I'd set him up good. Set up a fake drug deal or some other BS near a cliff or ravine and just push him off. If you don't have the guts for that then just put up fliers around town with his picture saying that he's a narc. You might want to find some proof first though. Find out who he narced on and get related court documents or firsthand testimony from his victim. Often court documents will only say CI, but usually you can listen to the audio from a court case as it's public record.
-FF
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 ChiefThunderbong
Inhale to theChief
Registered: 10/18/02
Posts: 2,799
Last seen: 1 minute, 9 seconds
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Re: narc troubles [Re: botasi]
#8342920 - 04/29/08 05:47 PM (6 months, 19 days ago) |
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How did you decide this guy was an informant?
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Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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Re: narc troubles [Re: fastfred]
#8343056 - 04/29/08 06:20 PM (6 months, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said:
As for the narc, I'd set him up good. Set up a fake drug deal or some other BS near a cliff or ravine and just push him off.
-FF
fred, wtf?
Killing someone cuz they're an informant?
I agree it may be moral to do this in some circumstances, but not it this one.
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botasi
The Laughing Man
Registered: 09/30/07
Posts: 11
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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The guy actually admitted to informing to one of his friends, and was even bragging about it...saying things like "pretty gutsy, huh?" and "I feel like fucking up some lives". Luckily the guys friend isn't a complete douchebag and let the right people know what was up.
And for pissing, he assumes the job would watch him piss? If they have been alerted that he will be faking the piss test, he thinks he will have some extra measures taken to ensure he isn't faking it.
and I agree that killing the guy isn't the right choice and I'm pretty sure my friend wont be doing that. Right now he's just playing it cool and not letting the narc know all that he knows. After the test I think he plans on calling the narc out on it. thanks for the help everyone!
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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Re: narc troubles [Re: botasi]
#8346734 - 04/30/08 05:52 PM (6 months, 18 days ago) |
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Why call him out?
Again IF there is a crime commited by the attempt/conspiracy to defraud the test, which I doubt but they might be able to get him on something, the voluntary end of the conspiracy by your friend is enough to defeat any charge. This isn't true if he's compelled to end it cuz he knows the guy is working with the law, I'm almost sure. Like if you get arrested before you can commit the act, you can't use that to your advantage to plead a voluntary abandonment.
First figure out if there is any crime re: fooling a drug test/lab test in your state. What is your state?
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botasi
The Laughing Man
Registered: 09/30/07
Posts: 11
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: narc troubles [Re: johnm214]
#8346999 - 04/30/08 06:56 PM (6 months, 18 days ago) |
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Well the job is a low-level postition working for the state. All state employees have to pass a pre-employment drug test. Nothing specific could be found about faking piss tests in my state... He's assuming failing the test isn't really illegal, but getting caught trying to fool the test with someone else's piss is possibly illegal
EDIT: found what I was looking for; not illegal. But will be excluded from all state jobs for a period of 3 years if he fails/tampers with sample
Edited by botasi (04/30/08 07:28 PM)
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fastfred
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 4,360
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: narc troubles [Re: johnm214]
#8347187 - 04/30/08 07:48 PM (6 months, 18 days ago) |
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> And for pissing, he assumes the job would watch him piss?
Shit, somehow I lost my post. Anyhow only people on probation/parole are watched piss. The standard procedure is to send you into a bathroom with the toilet water colored blue. They tell you not to run the tap or wash your hands until after turning in the sample. They usually give you only 4 minutes to come out with the sample or else you have to wait and try again a bit later. The piss cup has a thermometer strip on it which needs to read the proper temperature. I think it needs to read around 94-100F.
Anyhow it's not hard to beat. Make sure your sample is near the range. If it's too low you can piss on the strip which is on the outside of the cup to get it up to temp.
It's highly unlikely that there are any laws against cheating the test. If your temp range is off, the sample is too dilute, or any number of minor problems they usually just make you retake again later. If you fail or don't complete it they just deny you the job, there are no other consequences.
You're really being way too paranoid. Cops don't waste their time setting up narcs and sting operations on people who smoke a little weed or cheat piss tests.
Quote:
fred, wtf?
Killing someone cuz they're an informant?
I agree it may be moral to do this in some circumstances, but not it this one.
Perhaps, but a narc is a narc. Most of the time the victim can't really do much since they would be the first one implicated. It's usually up to somebody else to step up and for the community to deal with these people.
The people entering into illegal deals are both breaking the law. You're entering into a deal in which a condition of the deal is confidentiality. You both know that either person could be busted, and that's a chance you're taking. By ratting you are trying to reap the benefits of the deal while breaking it's conditions.
It is implicit in the deal that the punishment for ratting is death. This is street justice. Street justice tries to enforce justice in an unjust system. By ratting you have broken the deal and betrayed your partner. This alone deserves punishment. So then you're in a condition where you have caused harm to the other party and broken the deal you made. Further harm then comes from the legal system. The legal system imposes absurd penalties on the person who kept up their end of the contract while rewarding the criminal (and immoral) person who broke the contract. The penalties imposed on the just person who upheld their part of the contract are quite severe and may end up caging this honest person for decades. The only equivalent punishment in the system of street justice is death. There is no way to imprison a narc or punish them severely enough to equalize the system so that the immoral person (narc) receives more punishment than the moral person. The only way to ensure that the immoral party receives a more severe punishment than the moral person, and thus make the system just, is to kill them.
Were it not for the extremely unjust nature of the system such drastic measures would not be required. It is the government which makes such violence necessary to create a just system. Were the legal penalties more fair, such as the case is in Canada more or less, it would not be necessary to impose such severe consequences for the breakers of natural and street law.
If the narc did nothing other than violating the confidentiality of the agreement only a beating or street tax would be necessary. If the narc causes someone to be caged like an animal for a year perhaps a severe beating could establish a just system. If they cause someone to be imprisoned for 2 years then perhaps busting a kneecap or two and/or cutting off a finger or two would establish justice. That may seem harsh but you have to consider the repercussions other than just the jail time to the victim. You also have to create a punishment above and beyond simple equalization of punishment, and also tack on further punishment to act as a deterrent to the other scum that might consider narcing.
When the harm caused by the narc is 5-10 years of somebody's life and a decade of parole the only equivalent is capital punishment. I know that this is an unpleasant situation, but by narcing you know that the punishment is death. You are taking a chance and betting that you will beat true/street justice and win by cheating, being dishonest, breaking your agreement, and fucking honest people over. Thus when a narc "disappears" it is not only the result of carrying out a just punishment, but also acts to balance out the artificial system which rewards immorality.
Anyways, it's up the OP to determine what would be justice and make it happen. Personally I would never allow someone to narc people out and then sit around laughing at the harm they have caused. Imprisoning someone is an act of violence and a deprivation of their human rights. In my day a narc better know that they better leave town and cut all ties, or else it's done for them. That is a little bit of equalization. Knowing that they have to cut all ties, lose all their friends and contacts, and leave town as a result of betraying a friend is something that keeps people from acting this way. Making it social unacceptable to narc is just the reality and base of a semi-just system.
Of the narcs I've come across most of their fates is a mystery. They may disappear because they are no longer welcome and their remaining has become dangerous and unpleasant, or they may disappear because they are "gone". Either way it serves to establish a basic justice which removes narcs from the equation.
-FF
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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Re: narc troubles [Re: fastfred]
#8347277 - 04/30/08 08:07 PM (6 months, 18 days ago) |
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Pretty much agreed on all points.
This is the kinda bullshit that arises out of a justice system more concerned with victimless crime than with real crime. Those needing the assistance of the courts and police to enfroce contracts cannot, and then somehow drugs get blamed when people get hurt, as if it were the drugs. Nope, it sthe money, same in any other trade where people can't go to the police and the product is valubable. you see this in even legimitamate deals in states w/ massive corruption amongst the police, wehere people can't go to them, i.e. congo, somalia.
And that's what I mean in some cases it might be permissable to kill a narc. Only if they essentially would be taking a good deal of your life from you without you deserving it, i.e. when you hold your end of the bargain, hurt no one, and they try to get you arrested and imprisoned for 10 years.
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fastfred
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 4,360
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: narc troubles [Re: johnm214]
#8349733 - 05/01/08 01:22 PM (6 months, 18 days ago) |
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I agree with you. However, I don't think it is necessary to wait until someone has lost a decade of their life to off a narc that you know will do it if the chance arises.
The sad thing about narcs is that not only are they breaking the rules, violating the contract, and costing a moral person a good chunk of their life, but they are also putting their own scum life above that of a decent person. For example, a narc may be facing 5 years so they narc to get that reduced to a year or so and the person they narced on does 10 years. They are cheating to get out of a sentence imposed for a crime that they DID commit and thereby avoid punishment for committing the crime AND the punishment for getting busted. "In a closed society where everyone is guilty the only crime is getting busted." What they are doing is trading 4 years of their life for 10 years of someone else's who did them no wrong and upheld their end of the bargain.
This makes narcing immoral on so many different levels and creates such a severe travesty of justice that serious measures must be taken. They also know that the street punishment for narcing is death, so by narcing they knowingly bet that they can avoid street justice and that by cheating people and breaking their agreement they think they can come out ahead. When the end comes for a narc I'm sure that they understand that their fate is just. They know that what they did was wrong and when it catches up with them I doubt they would argue the justness of their fate with god.
When the system encourages cheating and backstabbing in order to win it can make monsters of the best of us. Cops certainly have no love for narcs. Cops know that they are both criminals under the legal system and criminals under street law. Cops especially have a code of silence wherein they have each other's backs, so they understand what pieces of shit narcs are as well as anyone. There are plenty of cases where they hang narcs out to dry or set them up to take a fall or get busted again after they get what they want.
The minimum punishment for narcing is a solid beating and/or banishment from the community in disgrace under the threat of retribution. It is up to everyone to enforce this. Otherwise everyone will narc every time they get busted. All sense of honor and justice will be lost and the police state will have won against the people. Solidarity amongst the people in a repressive police state is the only way to achieve any measure of freedom or justice.
That's why the OP needs to out this narc. Not only should everyone know and your friends all despise him, but anyone who still associates with the narc need to be despised and shunned. He needs to be put in the position where he has no friends and everyone in the community would fuck him over/up given the chance. When all of his friends hate him and everyone is out to get him he will soon realize how bad he fucked up and leave. This gets rid of the narc, he has to cut all ties, leave town, and never return under penalty of street justice.
When the narc realizes that he has lost all his friends, is shunned by everyone, and may not even be able to visit his hometown or family again hopefully he will have a change of heart and rebuild his life elsewhere. At the very least he is gone.
In a community where almost everybody has strong ties and narcing is the highest (and capital) offense this works very well. Always beware of the newcomer as they may be an exiled and unreformed narc.
What I would do is tell everyone of his narcing, you owe that to them to protect them from him. I would also gather enough evidence to prove that he is a narc and therefore leave no room for anyone to continue to associate with him. I would also put up some fliers identifying him as a narc. Post them around where he lives, works, and hangs out. Then have someone talk to him and tell him that EVERYONE knows and each one of them would beat him to death given the chance. Have them tell him that he would be wise not to show his face anywhere ever again. This is best done by one of his friends in the course of explaining why they can't associate with him anymore and never want to see him again.
-FF
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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy
The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed
"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)
I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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John Smith
Solo Voyager
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 496
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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Re: narc troubles [Re: fastfred]
#8352958 - 05/02/08 08:52 AM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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Agreed. On top of the moral side of your arguments, I have to add that informants are 99% of the means the police have to arrest people. In a world without narcs, the police would be almost completely ineffective.
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I have no idea what I am talking about but I do know I say things you don't understand and if you do understand what I am saying then you are wrong.
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bradley
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 2,365
Last seen: 3 hours, 22 minutes
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The objective here is not really to seek revenge on the narc, but to make an example of him to discourage others from taking that path. There are better ways to do that than killing him.  With some ingenuity...
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Killa Trav
Resident Stoner
Registered: 06/04/08
Posts: 43
Last seen: 5 months, 10 days
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Re: narc troubles [Re: bradley]
#8484811 - 06/04/08 06:58 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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snitches get stiches....AIIIIIGHHHT
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"Strawberry Fields Forever"
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