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 badreligion2good
Uncertain
 
Registered: 02/21/06
Posts: 724
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 Police Entrapment documented on Cops
#8183342 - 03/23/08 01:02 PM (8 months, 8 days ago) |
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I am currently watching an episode of Cops where the Tampa police department has undercover black officers standing on a corner signaling they have drugs for sale. When someone comes to make a purchase the cops complete the transaction, sell them their baggies, take the cash, and immediately an undercover SUV whips around the corner and bumps into the victims car. They then arrest them and go on to tell them that there car has now been ceased by the State.
Is this really legal?
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All I know is that I dont know.
Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.
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 Chemy
Ëmþàñädá §790.23
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 5,826
Loc: ༑㉿༑
Last seen: 2 minutes, 46 seconds
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John or fastfred can explain it better than I can.
There is a stickey at the top of this forum that explains entrapment.
Most of those reverse stings the UC's just stand there and people drive up and say "hey man you got (drug name)" that's not entrapment even by a common sense standard IMO.
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sudo apt-get install Barack-Obama
pu *.Bush
Deleted: B: /Bush/Patriot Act
Deleted: B: /Bush/NSA/AT&T/Warrantless Spying
Deleted: B: /Bush/Economy
Deleted: B: /Bush/Nukalur Weapons
Deleted: C: /Cheney/Control
Deleted: R: /Rice/Tool
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badreligion2good
Uncertain
Registered: 02/21/06
Posts: 724
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: Chemy]
#8183460 - 03/23/08 01:51 PM (8 months, 8 days ago) |
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Makes sense. I can see how its not entrapment.
What really shocked me was that they were actually selling buds to people. They weren't charged with conspiracy to purchase a narcotic, they were sold a narcotic by an officer and then charged for purchasing a narcotic.
Can police legally sell drugs to people, then arrest them? Isn't it illegal to sell illicit-drugs period?
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All I know is that I dont know.
Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.
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 Jon
Mongolian
Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 944
Last seen: 5 days, 15 hours
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One time this happened to me and I was able to keep the baggies because it was in a pocket where they couldnt find it. When I got out of the bus after buying bags from a black narc, 2 fat (like donut fat, not burley; no they were not good looking either) looking cops wearing a badge around their neck were coming towards me and my friend. My friend like a bitch admitted everything, where as I denied it (couldnt find it even though it was in the most obvious pocket ever). I think part of the reason they didnt turn me in because any more searching would have qualified for molestation and sexual humiliation, and also they would have to explain why they were missing 3 grams of pot from the evidence room. The port authority police has some good shit let me tell ya.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
badreligion2good said:
Can police legally sell drugs to people, then arrest them? Isn't it illegal to sell illicit-drugs period?
probably not
yes
but so what? JUst cuz its illegal doesn't mean you get off. And what are you going to do about it? If you can get the prosecutor to prosecute the police it still won't stop you from getting convicted
Edit: meant to say w/ re: to the second question that it is probably illegal per se to sell drugs in the second case in that manner, without license et cet. But its the prosecutor's question as to whether they wish to charge/indict a person. Selective prosecution is a pretty impotent defense. Perhaps I should add that to the legal principles sticky
Edited by johnm214 (03/24/08 01:05 AM)
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Gastronomicus
3 Oh! 3
Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 4,108
Loc: Bat Country
Last seen: 59 minutes, 52 seconds
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Entrapment implies that the suspect in question would not have normally committed the crime in question. Posing as a drug dealer is not entrapment whereas begging, bugging, or threatening someone into buying drugs when they normally would not have is entrapment
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Wasilla redneck
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 95,609
Loc: S.F.I.G.E.L.
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: johnm214]
#8208895 - 03/29/08 12:12 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
badreligion2good said:
Can police legally sell drugs to people, then arrest them? Isn't it illegal to sell illicit-drugs period?
probably not
yes
police can conduct a sting and sell real drugs, what happens of
the guy decides to have a peak at his prospective purchase and
it's grass clippings, it then leaves the officer in danger
as for the second, yes it's illegal to sell illicit drugs but
cops have the escape clause when there's a team working together
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8208916 - 03/29/08 12:27 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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If we're talking about what's legal, I don't see how cops can sell drugs, or what the 'escape clause' you refer to is.
I'm not saying their isn't some law exempting them from normal CSA offenses, but I'll continue to believe its illegal untill someone produces some authority.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: johnm214]
#8209147 - 03/29/08 02:13 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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cops can legaly sell drugs as part of an investigation, just like
they can lie to you, and they can use drugs in the course of
investigations, it's really not any different than prostitution stings
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8209172 - 03/29/08 02:26 AM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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well lieing isn't a crime, and neither is soliciting a prostitute you don't intend to have sex for money with
and as for the doing and selling drugs, you've not provided authority so I refuse to believe when a statute says "x is illegal" that that doesn't apply to police as well as everyone else.
perhpaps their are some laws, but I'll continue to think its illegal untill shown such
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: johnm214]
#8209540 - 03/29/08 08:37 AM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
well lieing isn't a crime, and neither is soliciting a prostitute you don't intend to have sex for money with
soliciting a prostitute for what? a game of scrabble?
lying is a crime, give a flase name or information to a cop and
see what charges it brings, if it were illegal for cops to carry
out a sting by selling drugs dont you think the ACLU would have
had it in front of the supreme court, these stings aren't set up
for the cops to make money, they're designed to get convictions
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8210948 - 03/29/08 04:14 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
well lieing isn't a crime, and neither is soliciting a prostitute you don't intend to have sex for money with
soliciting a prostitute for what? a game of scrabble?
lying is a crime, give a flase name or information to a cop and
see what charges it brings, if it were illegal for cops to carry
out a sting by selling drugs dont you think the ACLU would have
had it in front of the supreme court, these stings aren't set up
for the cops to make money, they're designed to get convictions
well, soliciting a prostitute to arrest her, or play scrabble; as the police don't intend to have sex, its legal
lieing is a crime in certain circumstances, but police lieing to a non-official doesn't implicat these
as for the ACLU angle on the drug selling by cops, no, they wouldn't pursue it, cuz just cuz an arrest or investigation was illegal doesn't mean it'll be surpressed. Suppression is only available where the statute allows for it or where there have been constitutional rights of the accused violated, as in illegal searches= violate 4th amendment
i.e. if you are speeding and the cops pursue you over the speed limit without their lights on, this is a crime they've commited in my state. But good luck getting anywhere with that. Its not a constiuttional violation
As you don't have a constitutional right to have the police not lie to you, and you have no standing to persue them for crimes, as the civil rights statutes again only cover constitutional violations, I don't think you'ld have the aclu getting cert at supreme court
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
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Loc: S.F.I.G.E.L.
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: johnm214]
#8211277 - 03/29/08 05:33 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Its not a constiuttional violation
what about 'loitering for the solicitation of drugs', meaning
you're standing around in a bad area with nothing illegal in your
possession, basically being in the wrong place at the wrong time
it's obvious that you understand cops have a whole different
rule book, why do you have such a problem believing they can use
real drugs to do sting operations, hell somewhere in california
a sheriffs department was manufacturing crack for the same
reason, they give it to the PD to make drug arrests
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 7,022
Loc: Americas
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8211481 - 03/29/08 06:17 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Its not a constiuttional violation
what about 'loitering for the solicitation of drugs', meaning
you're standing around in a bad area with nothing illegal in your
possession, basically being in the wrong place at the wrong time
it's obvious that you understand cops have a whole different
rule book, why do you have such a problem believing they can use
real drugs to do sting operations, hell somewhere in california
a sheriffs department was manufacturing crack for the same
reason, they give it to the PD to make drug arrests
I don't get your point on the loitering thing...
It's probably not a constitutional violation, that statute, if you have to prove the accused intended to loiter to commit the crime- but its certainly bad policy.
What I'm saying is that the law is the law. Cops break it too, and the legislature often doesn't write laws that accomodate cops.
All I'm saying is that I believe its illegal untill someone shows why it isn't.
I understand that they 'can' use real drugs, I'm saying that its probably illegal. In practice it really doesn't matter as them breaking the law in this matter doesn't allow the conviction to be challenged or the cops to be sued, and so its kinda moot....
One more reason to go back to roman-style self-prosecutions, which would also pretty much eliminate victimless crime, as who would prosecute when their is no victime?
I kinda like the idea... as a twist, we could still have public prosecutors, but just make the criminal law enforcable by third parties implicated by it... would seem to instill some justice and equity. So then if you're sold drugs you could sue for jail time as well... and if that's a cop.. well... bye bye.
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,407
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 1 month, 30 days
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entrapment means creating a situation where a law-abiding person would be unreasonably induced by police into committing a criminal act they otherwise would not.
this is not entrapment.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: johnm214]
#8213799 - 03/30/08 09:47 AM (8 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
I don't get your point on the loitering thing...
It's probably not a constitutional violation, that statute, if you have to prove the accused intended to loiter to commit the crime- but its certainly bad policy.
the point is there are laws in place saying you cant be in an
area that has easy access to the general public, like the
sidewalk in front of your house without the risk of being
arrested, the risk increases when you enter lower income areas
because these areas are 'known' for drugs making it illegal to
be somewhere unless you have a specific purpose
Quote:
What I'm saying is that the law is the law.
and I'm stating that exceptions to the law are made for law
enforcement personnel in the execution of their duties, to say
it's illegal for a cop to sell the drugs in order to make an
arrest is no different than saying it's illegal to buy the drugs
to make that arrest, wouldnt the cop be guilty of possession
when he's buying?
Quote:
All I'm saying is that I believe its illegal untill someone shows why it isn't.
seems you and the canadians are to only ones that believe it as
such, reverse stings are common place in the US as we know and
yet there's very little evidence showing that people are willing
to fight it.
Dean v. Gober, S99A0691, S99X0692 (November 1, 1999)
Gober was arrested and charged with drug possession after buying methamphetamine from an undercover officer. [He was convicted in the criminal case.] He had brought a writ of mandamus against the Gwinnett County Police Department [Dean is the police chief] seeking an order that the police comply with O.C.G.A. §16-13-49(u)(1). That statute requires the destruction of any forfeited contraband which is dangerous to the public. The Court held that the drugs in Gober’s case were not subject to that requirement since the same statute exempts drugs which are evidence in a pending criminal case, but further held that the trial court’s order was correct insofar as it ordered the destruction of other forfeited drugs. Justices Carley and Hunstein dissented in part, raising the question of whether the majority opinion effectively bars reverse sting operations, and arguing that O.C.G.A. §16-13-35(c)(4) [allowing police to possess drugs while in the course of their official duties] should be read to allow police to use forfeited drugs for such sting operations. The case raises the possibility that the state legislature may clarify this in their next session.
[Possibly, in defense of a reverse sting prosecution, a motion to suppress could be made based on the use of drugs which by law should have been destroyed.]
The trial judge was Michael C. Clark of Gwinnett Superior Court. Gober was represented by Gregory W. Lancaster of Lawrenceville and Walter M. Britt and Deborah F. Weiss of Buford.
this shows us that the real questionablility was in the
destruction of the drugs, the focus wasnt on the actual
possession or distribution of the drugs
Quote:
I understand that they 'can' use real drugs, I'm saying that its probably illegal. In practice it really doesn't matter as them breaking the law in this matter doesn't allow the conviction to be challenged or the cops to be sued, and so its kinda moot....
intent was mentioned before regarding the prostitutes, I could
see the legality coming into question if their intent was to let
the drugs leave their sight or allow for consumption, surely if
the act of police ditribution were really illegal there would be
hundreds of cases over turned easily found through google
Quote:
One more reason to go back to roman-style self-prosecutions, which would also pretty much eliminate victimless crime, as who would prosecute when their is no victime?
from 1910 to 1972 the practice of common law has been stripped
away, we now reside under maritime law, as you already know
there doesnt have to be a victim and in the cases where the
'criminal' is a large corporation, there is only civil liability
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jeverden
Mushroom Hunter
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Re: Police Entrapment documented on Cops [Re: Prisoner#1]
#8217590 - 03/31/08 12:02 AM (8 months, 1 day ago) |
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I ran into a similar situation. I was out of state picking up someone. I stopped at 3 AM my friend was driving without a license because I was to fucked on xanax. We pulled over to ask someone who looked like a dealer on the corner for directions. I asked for directions numerous times and he kept trying to sell me shit. Finally after numerous times of him asking if I wanted to buy drugs I said yes. He got in the car and asked me what I want. I asked him what he had / could get. After he replied anything I asked for some powder. He tried to get me to buy a ball. I said I only wanted like a $20. He said pullover here. Next thing I know he is walking away and there's a shit ton of cops bum rushing the car. They found the xanax on my buddy, and arrested him for driving without a license and for the xanax. They towed my car I started bitching and literally got the shit beat out of me. Never got arrested though.
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All of my posts are purely fictional and for hypothetical purposes.
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