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 AlphaFalfa
Stranger
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 165
Last seen: 12 days, 20 hours
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 Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists.
#8707731 - 07/31/08 02:17 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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I cannot believe free will exists after this test I took to prove to me it actually is only something we imagine exists.
Try to imagine a color that you have never had the chance to see in your life.
I cant do this, I only imagine I do when I mix two colors I have seen before and get a new color. But this still is not enough, the supposed new color is just two old colors, put together, so its still old, it just seems new, identically to how it seems like I have free will.
Free is defined as unlimited by many dictionaries and its the way I will use it here.
Will is identical with choice.
Free choice and free will are the same then.
Problem: If I choose a color, to best represent my favorite color, I can only choose from the colors I have experienced in my life. Why? Well I cant fucking think about a color that I have NEVER SEEN, and its fucking blatantly obvious that I cant choose a color that I cant think about. Why? Try to choose something you can think about? See, you cant choose it, because its not there to choose from out of all your thoughts your thinking.
And since I can only choose from the colors that I have seen in my life, then my choice IS not unlimited, because my life is limited to my life. Ex. A person wakes up and says, I would like to travel. This person's life has showed him that only 2 countries exist in the world. His choice about where to travel is limited because there surely are more than two countries in the world....atleast to those who have had the chance in life to see that there is.
Conclusion; Our choices are limited by the things we learn in our life. And since our choices are limited, then to say we have free will, happens when our life has limited us to choose that we do not have free unlimited choice.
Did I have the free will to write this - Yes, in my imagination....And no when I see that I can only choose what is best, within what my life has given me the opportunity to do.
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 suimush
Future Rockstar
 
Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 9,545
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707745 - 07/31/08 02:20 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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i think youre thinking a little too into this.
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~TOTAL FREEDOM THROUGH TOTAL CONTROL~
The Ultimate Artistic ParradoxX
   
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toastandjam
Tastes Great, Less Filling
Registered: 05/07/06
Posts: 739
Last seen: 18 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707748 - 07/31/08 02:21 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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There is no such thing as free will, there is only the total overriding experience and sensation of free will. Enjoy it.
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Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons... and for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realized the paradox...
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you'd never considered. That's the exploration that awaits you...not mapping stars and studying nebulae... but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.
To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. -Dogen Zenji
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AlphaFalfa
Stranger
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 165
Last seen: 12 days, 20 hours
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: suimush]
#8707764 - 07/31/08 02:24 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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I only think to the point that I think is best.
It doesnt look like you've read it though, cuz if you did you would see that I dont have the free will to think to much or to little, but just what I think is best.
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drok
creep
Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,215
Loc: on my high horse
Last seen: 26 days, 37 minutes
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: toastandjam]
#8707773 - 07/31/08 02:25 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Woah
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CLICK HERE FOR GOOD MUSIC
CLICK HERE FOR GOOD MUSIC
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 12,697
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: toastandjam]
#8707809 - 07/31/08 02:33 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
toastandjam said:
There is no such thing as free will, there is only the total overriding experience and sensation of free will. Enjoy it.
Correct. Nature and consciousness itself are merely a process. Literal 'free will' just isn't a part of this universe. However, due to the formation of the ego during human psychological development, we get the sensation that there is an 'I' or 'me' behind our physical behaviors and psychological affects. The mere suggestion of the possibility of free agency in living organisms is misguided because it simply cannot be reconciled with the known structure of the universe from which 'we' were spawned. Free will is a literal absurdity.
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paradis said:
A few people have said that I have delusions of grandeur
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AlphaFalfa
Stranger
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 165
Last seen: 12 days, 20 hours
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: it stars saddam]
#8707822 - 07/31/08 02:36 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Woah is true, I am having a hard time believing my own words.
Reading it over!!!
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AlphaFalfa
Stranger
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 165
Last seen: 12 days, 20 hours
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707834 - 07/31/08 02:39 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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wow thats is amazing.
I think this is the reason we make mistakes or mistakes happen. yeah mistakes happen.
We just CANT see what is the best choice to make, in relation to our goal...the choice doesnt even exist for us to choose, until we see that our previous choice was not the right one!!! BANG we learnt right there that it was not.
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The_Ghost
Lurker
Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 3,726
Loc: CA
Last seen: 10 hours, 13 minutes
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707857 - 07/31/08 02:43 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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What you're basically saying is because we could technically speaking calculate every possible choice of a given situation, there is a limit to those choices. You are using that logic to state that not being able to make a choice that cant be made == lack of free will.
Your logic is flawed.
A choice is a choice is a choice.
The ability to make that choice is will.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 6,529
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707861 - 07/31/08 02:43 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: Free choice and free will are the same then.
This is your problem: choice is not identical with will in the way that you are using it. Just because I only have a limited number of options to choose from does not mean that I do not have free will, as I can still freely choose which option I want to pick. The will, or volition, is merely our capability to perform an action--it is this capability that is in question when one inquires about free will.
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we are born naked, wet, hungry, and torn from the woman we love. then things get worse.  
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drok
creep
Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 1,215
Loc: on my high horse
Last seen: 26 days, 37 minutes
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: The_Ghost]
#8707866 - 07/31/08 02:44 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Id have to put some agreement into my friend ghosts statement
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CLICK HERE FOR GOOD MUSIC
CLICK HERE FOR GOOD MUSIC
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 OneMoreRobot3021
punky jewster
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 56,599
Loc: new york shitty
Last seen: 3 minutes, 57 seconds
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707874 - 07/31/08 02:46 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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I've definitely seen colors while tripping with eyes closed that don't "exist" otherwise.
Of course the mind has unlimited freedom...we're just raised to think in certain ways and sometimes it takes an alchemical nudge to learn how to think beyond that box. 
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The Drug Policy Alliance  Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies
"The psychedelic experience - it has a tremendous force to revivify the spirit, particularly because it is not an ideology. It is not something someone 'figured out.' It is an EXPERIENCE. And this is important to bear in mind." - McKenna.
"We're not mad, we're just doing what we want. You rigid thinkers can't recognize the healthy sanity of that." - Harlan Ellison, "Crackpots"
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golden1
Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 404
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#8707898 - 07/31/08 02:52 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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if you think about it, everything we do is based on the past and our senses. So when you get down to it, we are just following a path. good enough for me though
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The_Ghost
Lurker
Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 3,726
Loc: CA
Last seen: 10 hours, 13 minutes
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: golden1]
#8707914 - 07/31/08 02:55 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
golden1 said:
if you think about it, everything we do is based on the past and our senses. So when you get down to it, we are just following a path. good enough for me though
No, that would be the equivalent of being a pre-programmed robot. Which some people seem to be. But we have the capacity for leading a much more creative existence.
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Cameron
perma-stone
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 2,143
Loc: Canada
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: golden1]
#8707938 - 07/31/08 03:01 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Yeah, if you really want to take it to the extreme, then everything we've done can be traced back to our childhood and experiences therein which were out of our control, and which shaped our current personalities. People with a great childhood usually become average, properly initiated citizens, whereas people with traumatic experiences sometimes become serial killers and child rapists with repressed memories of sexual and physical abuse.
I draw the line at the present moment and what I am capable of right now. Do I have the option of lifting a hand, standing, picking a career of my choice, jumping into traffic? Sure, I can take my life in any number of directions based on my decisions right now. Are my decisions influenced by my past? Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that my psyche is the only thing holding me back. 
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toastandjam
Tastes Great, Less Filling
Registered: 05/07/06
Posts: 739
Last seen: 18 hours, 57 minutes
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: golden1]
#8707949 - 07/31/08 03:03 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
golden1 said:
if you think about it, everything we do is based on the past and our senses. So when you get down to it, we are just following a path. good enough for me though
I actually wrote a paper on the nature of free will (and its illusion) while I was going to school. I think what you're talking about is the more fascinating approach to the illusion because it starts to get down to explaining it, rather than merely proposing its existence. I think its pretty reasonable.
Quote:
We tend to think of people as seeking out a goal, focusing our consideration on where they might be going, rather than on where they have been. When decisions are made in our brains, information is utilized –information found in beliefs, desires, memories, and plans, all completely subjective products of where we have been. The sensation of consciously willing actions may come from our inability to completely access, in a conscious way, all the means by which our brains decide to execute any given task. Thus, we have the sensation of spontaneously creating our future as we go. It has been proposed that consciousness emerges as the organizing, cross-referencing aspect of all that the brain does. In that case, the feeling of will is not a direct readout of why we do things-- we do not will ourselves into action at all-- it is the result of a mental system that oversees the role of our brain-generated minds moment by moment, as a sort of humanometer.
The illusion of free will is necessary for us to have the capacity to wonder about it. Despite not really having free will, in the perfect illusion of it we are aware of those actions and are hence able to learn better from them. Additionally, by interacting with memory, we have the potential to learn from situations without ever having to engage in them. It is our subjectivity that validates our experience, explaining why the illusion of free will becomes necessary and ultimately makes the concept of "I am…" possible. That is why, in the end, the subjective experience of each individual is of primary importance.
--------------------
Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons... and for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realized the paradox...
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you'd never considered. That's the exploration that awaits you...not mapping stars and studying nebulae... but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.
To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. -Dogen Zenji
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 6,289
Loc: Right here.
Last seen: 4 minutes, 17 seconds
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: Cameron]
#8707971 - 07/31/08 03:05 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cameron said:People with a great childhood usually become average, properly initiated citizens, whereas people with traumatic experiences sometimes become serial killers and child rapists with repressed memories of sexual and physical abuse.
People with "great childhoods" also sometimes grow up to be apathetic losers with no motivation.
And (more importantly) traumatic childhoods can also lead to incredible leaps and bounds in spiritual growth.
It all depends on the courage inside an individual to explore outside of what is familiar.
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There's a lot that I don't know. There's a lot that I'm still learning.
When I think I'm letting go, I find my body is still burning.
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golden1
Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 404
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: toastandjam]
#8707988 - 07/31/08 03:10 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
toastandjam said:
Quote:
golden1 said:
if you think about it, everything we do is based on the past and our senses. So when you get down to it, we are just following a path. good enough for me though
I actually wrote a paper on the nature of free will (and its illusion) while I was going to school. I think what you're talking about is the more fascinating approach to the illusion because it starts to get down to explaining it, rather than merely proposing its existence. I think its pretty reasonable.
Quote:
We tend to think of people as seeking out a goal, focusing our consideration on where they might be going, rather than on where they have been. When decisions are made in our brains, information is utilized –information found in beliefs, desires, memories, and plans, all completely subjective products of where we have been. The sensation of consciously willing actions may come from our inability to completely access, in a conscious way, all the means by which our brains decide to execute any given task. Thus, we have the sensation of spontaneously creating our future as we go. It has been proposed that consciousness emerges as the organizing, cross-referencing aspect of all that the brain does. In that case, the feeling of will is not a direct readout of why we do things-- we do not will ourselves into action at all-- it is the result of a mental system that oversees the role of our brain-generated minds moment by moment, as a sort of humanometer.
The illusion of free will is necessary for us to have the capacity to wonder about it. Despite not really having free will, in the perfect illusion of it we are aware of those actions and are hence able to learn better from them. Additionally, by interacting with memory, we have the potential to learn from situations without ever having to engage in them. It is our subjectivity that validates our experience, explaining why the illusion of free will becomes necessary and ultimately makes the concept of "I am…" possible. That is why, in the end, the subjective experience of each individual is of primary importance.
yeah I was having a hard time putting it into words, but that is exactly what I was trying to say. it sounds logical to me
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Cameron
perma-stone
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 2,143
Loc: Canada
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#8708001 - 07/31/08 03:12 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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True, the outcome of a 'good' or 'bad' childhood is hugely dependent on the person, or is it?
How reliant are our decisions on past experience and brain configuration? Do the people with the 'courage to explore the unfamiliar' really step outside of their past experience and the chain of decisions associated with it, or has their life influenced their decision to try something new? 
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JacquesCousteau
Being.
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 6,289
Loc: Right here.
Last seen: 4 minutes, 17 seconds
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Re: Holy FUKKK, Free Will, prove to me it exists. [Re: Cameron]
#8708012 - 07/31/08 03:15 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Well, I guess it is everyone's opinion... but I can say personally that I have had so much spiritual growth AND opportunities to avoid it out of fear... at this point I am very aware of a responsibility on my part to maintain a loving mode of operation... and even more so I am aware of my ability to bury my head in the sand by choice.
You could say that I am a product of my upbringing and will make decisions based on thus, but the truth is, there is only one question being asked, over and over. "Do you accept?" and I have the options of either YES or NO... and that IS the extent of my free will.
In every moment I can either choose to accept the nature of my reality, or I can choose to deny the nature of my reailty. This is free will, and I don't believ that my ability to choose one or the other is generated by my history. I only believe that my history generated my awareness of the opportunity to make this decision in any given moment. Or in other words, I believe that my history was a path that inevitably led to my realization of free will.
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There's a lot that I don't know. There's a lot that I'm still learning.
When I think I'm letting go, I find my body is still burning.
Edited by JacquesCousteau (07/31/08 03:19 PM)
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