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 truekimbo2
ghost of an alien robot
 
Registered: 12/08/02
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 close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit.
#8488485 - 06/05/08 01:52 PM (5 months, 15 days ago) |
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http://www.physorg.com/news131101595.html
To many people, cold fusion sounds too good to be true. The idea is that, by creating nuclear fusion at room temperature, researchers can generate a nearly unlimited source of power that uses water as fuel and produces almost zero waste. Essentially, cold fusion would make oil obsolete.
However, many experts debate whether money should be spent on cold fusion research or applied to more realistic alternative energy solutions. For decades, researchers around the world have been simply trying to show that cold fusion is indeed possible, but they´ve yet to take that important first step.
Now, esteemed Physics Professor Yoshiaki Arata of Osaka University in Japan claims to have made the first successful demonstration of cold fusion. Last Thursday, May 22, Arata and his colleague Yue-Chang Zhang of Shianghai Jiotong University presented the cold fusion demonstration to 60 onlookers, including other physicists, as well as reporters from six major newspapers and two TV studios. If Arata and Zhang´s demonstration is real, it could lead to a future of new, clean, and cheap energy generation.
In their experiment, the physicists forced deuterium gas into a cell containing a mixture of palladium and zirconium oxide, which absorbed the deuterium to produce a dense "pynco" deuterium. In this dense state, the deuterium nuclei from different atoms were so close together that they fused to produce helium nuclei.
Evidence for the occurrence of this fusion came from measuring the temperature inside the cell. When Arata first injected the deuterium gas, the temperature rose to about 70° C (158° F), which Arata explained was due to nuclear and chemical reactions. When he turned the gas off, the temperature inside the cell remained warmer than the cell wall for 50 hours, which Arata said was an effect of nuclear fusion.
While Arata´s demonstration looked promising to his audience, the real test is still to come: duplication. Many scientists and others are now recalling the infamous 1989 demonstration by Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, who claimed to produce controlled nuclear fusion in a glass jar at room temperature. However, no one - including Fleischmann and Pons - could duplicate the experiment, leading many people to consider cold fusion a pseudoscience to this day.
But one witness at the recent demonstration, physicist Akito Takahashi of Osaka University, thought that the experiment should be able to be repeated.
"Arata and Zhang demonstrated very successfully the generation of continuous excess energy [heat] from ZrO2-nano-Pd sample powders under D2 gas charging and generation of helium-4," Takahashi told New Energy Times. "The demonstrated live data looked just like data they reported in their published papers [J. High Temp. Soc. Jpn, Feb. and March issues, 2008]. This demonstration showed that the method is highly reproducible."
In addition, researchers will have to repeat the experiment with larger amounts of the palladium and zirconium oxide mixture in order to generate larger quantities of energy.
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I'm trapped with a mad man. look at him, staring into me, filling my mind with paranoid thoughts
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 nobhdy
ETNAV
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: truekimbo2]
#8496411 - 06/07/08 02:10 PM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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I've always been a fan of cold fusion. I hope this isn't another hoax.
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[quote]Gumby said:
And if you are going to waste peoples time with your stupid questions, at least try to have grammar skills higher then that of a 7th grader.
READ DAMNIT! [/quote]
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Wiccan_Seeker
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: truekimbo2]
#8496594 - 06/07/08 03:41 PM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Wait, are they suggesting:
D + D --> He-4 + Energy
That would be way too good to be true, because that would mean aneutronic fusion and apart from some gamma rays no radioactivity being involved.
Sweet lord, if only that could be true. But you know the saying:
If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
What you normally expect from this reaction is this:
D + D --> He-3 + neutron
D + D --> H + Tritium
Which means hard neutrons and highly radioactive tritium.
D + D --> He-4 + Energy
in a simple cold fusion reaction.. If only it could be true! If this works, and cleanly works, the sky is the limit.
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Madtowntripper
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#8496625 - 06/07/08 03:54 PM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Let me see if I can find the published papers. I graduated last December, but when I last checked I still had access to the UW Libraries database...
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Tri High
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#8496653 - 06/07/08 04:04 PM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
Wait, are they suggesting:
D + D --> He-4 + Energy
That would be way too good to be true, because that would mean aneutronic fusion and apart from some gamma rays no radioactivity being involved.
Sweet lord, if only that could be true. But you know the saying:
If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
What you normally expect from this reaction is this:
D + D --> He-3 + neutron
D + D --> H + Tritium
Which means hard neutrons and highly radioactive tritium.
D + D --> He-4 + Energy
in a simple cold fusion reaction.. If only it could be true! If this works, and cleanly works, the sky is the limit.
I don't think that's quite what they're suggesting. They're adding the Deuterium to other elements: Zirconium, I think it was and another one. So perhaps the D is reacting with the atoms of the other elements...I'm pretty sure it's not just D+D.
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 johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,924
Loc: Americas
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8496671 - 06/07/08 04:12 PM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said:
Let me see if I can find the published papers. I graduated last December, but when I last checked I still had access to the UW Libraries database...
If you need a paper, post in the academic journal/authority request thread in chem n pharmacology with the citation.
I just hate how all these news stories NEVER give the citation for the actual article that you can read to figure out what the science writer lied about
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: johnm214]
#8496697 - 06/07/08 04:22 PM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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They give a bastardized citation, it's not proper, but they give journal, date, and author. You could probably find it.
It's at the end. My library doesn't carry that journal, and I suspect it may be in Japanese.
Try the Feb/March issues of The Journal of the High Temperature Society.
Again, might be in Japanese.
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DieCommie
Ally
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: Tri High]
#8496942 - 06/07/08 05:50 PM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Fusion is D + D. If zirconium reacted with it, it would be chemical not nuclear.
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Behold yon miserable creature. That Point is a Being like ourselves, but confined to the non-dimensional Gulf. He is himself his own World, his own Universe; of any other than himself he can form no conception; he knows not Length, nor Breadth, nor Height, for he has had no experience of them; he has no cognizance even of the number Two; nor has he a thought of Plurality; for he is himself his One and All, being really Nothing. Yet mark his perfect self-contentment, and hence learn his lesson, that to be self-contented is to be vile and ignorant, and that to aspire is better than to be blindly and impotently happy.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,924
Loc: Americas
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: Madtowntripper]
#8497079 - 06/07/08 06:48 PM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Yeah, they do better than most. I like how they were so close to just giving a proper citation, but then news writer mode kicked in and: "oh shit, I"ve almost provided enough information for someone to find the article without a search... I better stop here"
Seriously, is it a rule that when a news or pop-sci publication covers a study they MUST NOT give the citation? wtf?
Quote:
J. High Temp. Soc. Jpn, Feb. and March issues, 2008]
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,924
Loc: Americas
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: johnm214]
#8497200 - 06/07/08 07:45 PM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Here's a link to an earlier paper by these guys. Can't find the journal in my database- perhaps cuz its japanese like madtown stated. There are english issues over the web, but maybe translations? Can't find this article. If someone ca find the article, please post it.
Here's the earlier article. Seems they are making the same claims in it: detuerium--->helium 4 in zirconium thingies. Anyone want to comment? I've not really tried to understand it due to lack of knowledge in physics and anticipated confusion:)
So what do you guys think of this?
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ArataYdevelopmena.pdf ; (1.5 mb pdf)
Here's a question for the physicists around here:
Wouldn't it be easiest to find helium that is unexplainable rather than measuring temperature and infering some anomolous heat generation? I mean the temp could be some chemical reaction, but wouldn't the helium be unexplainable unless their was some "contamination" of the materials?
All this article says is that one random guy in the peanut gallary (some prof from the university apparenlty not related to the study) mentioned that helium was produced, but he doesn't say how he knows this to be the case, or whether that was just the conclusion that follows from believing that fusion occured.
Was this guy just presuming that helium 4 was formed? Or was the article shitty and left out some proof, besides a random guy's say-so based upon unknown evidence, that it actually was formed?
Any thoughts appreciated.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: johnm214]
#8498927 - 06/08/08 04:27 AM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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> Wouldn't it be easiest to find helium that is unexplainable rather than measuring temperature
Actually, they should be looking for neutrons, as that would be undeniable proof of fusion (assuming the neutrons are at the proper energy levels).
> Was this guy just presuming that helium 4 was formed?
To avoid having to explain the lack of neutrons? As W_S pointed out, what you normally expect is:
D + D --> He-3 + neutron
D + D --> H + Tritium
The reaction:
D + D --> He-4 + Gamma + Alpha
is what they are claiming to get... which works in theory (equations balance). They claim the alpha and gamma are what contribute to the heating of the system. I would like to see some 20MeV neutrons before I claimed something was fusion.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Visionary Tools
Kiffah
Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: truekimbo2]
#8498975 - 06/08/08 05:12 AM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
truekimbo2 said:
http://www.physorg.com/news131101595.html
realistic alternative energy solutions
Ie: It's not real until the oil companies are making and marketing it.
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In times of universal deceit, the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,924
Loc: Americas
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8499009 - 06/08/08 05:33 AM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
truekimbo2 said:
http://www.physorg.com/news131101595.html
realistic alternative energy solutions
Ie: It's not real until the oil companies are making and marketing it.
To disprove my hunch that this is an argument from ignorance, why don't you demonstrate the real alternative energy solutions that aren't taken seriously due to some oil company interference or lack of interest.
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Visionary Tools
Kiffah
Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: johnm214]
#8499025 - 06/08/08 05:43 AM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Heat pumps.
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In times of universal deceit, the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
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Wiccan_Seeker
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: Seuss]
#8499282 - 06/08/08 08:33 AM (5 months, 13 days ago) |
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Well in defense of their experiment (though I think its a pipe dream) Tritium and neutrons is what you get when Deuterons bump into each other at tremendous velocities. If the Pd catalyst somehow squeezes them into each other the reaction might have a different outcome. If it indeed works like that, there may be no neutrons and tritium formed.
Which is what I hope for. Aneutronic fusion as a first successful commercial fusion plant would be like Mr Ford building a Ferrari Testarossa as the first car ever 
Would you even get a 20 MeV neutron with D + D ?
I know one of the very first fusion bombs used deuterated ammonia (ND3) as a fusion fuel, with a high-energy neutron turning Nitrogen into Tritium to achieve D + T goodness. It was my understanding however that the Nitrogen needed neutrons from the fission reaction, because fusion neutrons weren't fast enough.
I believe the energy required to turn Nitrogen into Tritium is in the order of 4 MeV but that the D+D fusion neutron at 2.45 MeV falls short of that.
Please prove me wrong. If ND3 can be cooked with its own neutrons, the lithium shortage I anticipate after 3000-4000 AD might not be an issue as nitrogen (terrestrial and extra-terrestrial) is by far more abundant. ND3, if it cooks, could be one of the major exports of the gas mining operations in the atmospheres of the smaller gas giants.
So, please prove me wrong here 
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Minstrel
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#8534870 - 06/17/08 07:18 PM (5 months, 3 days ago) |
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The D2 could simply be oxidizing. Might there be any heavy-water condensate in the reaction chamber? That would be tell-tale of where the heat came from. I'd be less skeptical if the chamber was strictly oxygen-free.
Though even if some water did form, precise calorimetry and the known heats of reaction for D2 and O2 could tell you if there was any excess heat, possibly from a nuclear reaction. I'd also like to know by what method they are measuring He, or any other isotopes, for that matter.
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Edited by Minstrel (06/17/08 07:23 PM)
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mofo
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: Minstrel]
#8535389 - 06/17/08 09:59 PM (5 months, 3 days ago) |
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Well, I'm no physicist but I think its only a matter of time before cold fusion and a lot of other stuff gets developed. Thats why I'm kind of pro nuclear power. If we do enough of it, eventually we'll have to figure out what to do with all that spent fuel, and I'm sure someone will one day find a way to capitalize off it. Seems like humans never act until their back is against the wall, then voila, someone figures it out. I bet someone will even figure out a way to reverse global warming, hopefully soon.
But I think we're obviously still at the very infancy of a lot of sciences, but especially nuclear physics. I even think eventually we may find sources of energy that are far more productive than even fusion, such as perhaps matter/antimatter reactions. If you believe Bob Lazar, he claims antimatter can be generated by bombarding an isotope of element 115 with neutrons or something like that.
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supra
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: mofo]
#8535491 - 06/17/08 10:30 PM (5 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
mofo said:
I bet someone will even figure out a way to reverse global warming, hopefully soon.
I fuckin hope not, I could only see that causing more problems than we have now, way more.
I hope this cold fusion stuff is real, or any of this easy more renewable energy...
peace
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,924
Loc: Americas
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: mofo]
#8536161 - 06/18/08 04:08 AM (5 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
mofo said:
Well, I'm no physicist but I think its only a matter of time before cold fusion and a lot of other stuff gets developed. Thats why I'm kind of pro nuclear power. If we do enough of it, eventually we'll have to figure out what to do with all that spent fuel, and I'm sure someone will one day find a way to capitalize off it.
ahh yes, another believer in the faith healing of science.
Perhaps we should spend more tax dollars on alternative fuels?
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Wiccan_Seeker
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Re: close to cold fusion? looks pretty legit. [Re: truekimbo2]
#8536841 - 06/18/08 11:21 AM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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ENDGAME EARTHLINGS THE CRASH COURSE MONEY AS DEBT ARITHMETIC, POPULATION & ENERGY
ZEITGEIST part II: ADDENDUM JB TAYLOR - MY STROKE OF INSIGHT ASPARTAME: SWEET MISERY
PiHKAL TiHKAL BEST TRIPPING MANUAL SALVIA DIVINORUM MDMA DRUG LIBRARY MEDICAL & PHARMS DATABASE
ALCOHOL DISTILLING POT GROWING SHROOMERY CULTIVATION ARCHIVE EROWID MIRROR RHODIUM ARCHIVE
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