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 mofo
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 nuclear bombs as space beacons
#8383319 - 05/09/08 09:31 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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I've always wondered, how far into space could say, a 500 kiloton air-burst A-bomb be seen from with the naked eye? With a hobby telescope? With a powerful research telescope or array? It would seem to me these kinds of energy impulses might be the most powerful signals a civilization could beam up, intentionally or not. Does anyone know how this could be figured out?
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 DimensionX
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: mofo]
#8383354 - 05/09/08 09:38 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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I don't think it would be very visible. The energy in it could only go as fast as the speed of light. And space is so large that even light takes awhile to get to places. Suns explode with way more power than a nuke, and even they would only appear as a little flicker from this distance.
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Pilfering through that sordid catalogue you call your mind
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mofo
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: DimensionX]
#8383607 - 05/09/08 10:46 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
DimensionX said:
I don't think it would be very visible. The energy in it could only go as fast as the speed of light. And space is so large that even light takes awhile to get to places. Suns explode with way more power than a nuke, and even they would only appear as a little flicker from this distance.
When suns explode? As in a supernova? From what I understand, they are much brighter than a flicker. In fact, if there were a supernova closer than about 26 light years from earth, it is believed such an event could be cataclysmic for our planet. Astronomers predict Betelgeuse will go supernova some time in the next 1000 years, and when it does, it will be the brightest thing in the night sky other than the moon, and easily visible even in the daytime. And thats 400 light years away. With the proper telescope, supernovae are even visible within other galaxies.
And yes, you're correct that the speed of light would be a limitation, but there are numerous stars in our neighborhood, and it would take a relatively short time for light to reach those stars (i.e. the nearest 50 stars are within 17 light years from earth).
Also, the further away from the source, the more diffuse the light will become, until such a point that it will become very difficult or impossible to detect.
I just wonder sometimes whether all those above ground nuke tests conducted up until the test ban treaty are still traveling through space, and will suddenly find their way into a telescope somewhere else, far away. And perhaps we may not want to draw attention to ourselves in such a way.
But what I was really wondering is if anyone knows the formula for figuring the rate at which light will diffuse over distance, and whether such blasts would still have significant detectable energy at say, 50 light years. I can't even seem to find how many lumens a bomb of that size would put out.
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DimensionX
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: mofo]
#8383619 - 05/09/08 10:51 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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They would be really bright if you were close to them. But when looked at from the distances of space there tiny, which is crazy considering the size of the explosion they make. I
I think a nuclear blast would look tiny even from the perspective of someone watching from mars let alone one of the stars light years away.
Although it would be kind of worrying if you were an alien speicies and the first sign you recieve of another intelligent speices is a nuclear blast going off.
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Pilfering through that sordid catalogue you call your mind
Edited by DimensionX (05/09/08 10:59 PM)
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Seuss
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: DimensionX]
#8384378 - 05/10/08 03:48 AM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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> I just wonder sometimes whether all those above ground nuke tests conducted up until the test ban treaty are still traveling through space, and will suddenly find their way into a telescope somewhere else, far away.
All the radio signals we send into space will be detectable long before anybody out there would notice flashes from a nuke. Even then, it would be like noticing a flashlight sitting beside massive spotlight. Just like the sun 'blocks out' the stars during the day, from a distance, the sun is going to make it difficult for somebody to see a small flash on a planet.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: mofo]
#8392590 - 05/12/08 12:43 PM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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Could it be detected? Probably with the right telescope trained on the right spot at the right time. Though, I would imagine that compared to other significant phenomena in space, it would be a short-lived explosion. Supernova last from hours to months whereas nuclear explosions, at least in space, would be measured in seconds.
So, compared to those events, it wouldn't be very bright at all and the short duration make it all the more unlikely to be noticed. Actually, it wouldn't even be bright compared to what you think of as a nuclear explosion. Most of the energy from a nuclear explosion is caused by the interaction of surrounding material or matter (ie., blast wave, thermal radiation). In the vacuum of space comparatively little visible light is released. From what I could find, if detonated past the exosphere (at most 6000 miles) you might not even see it from the surface of the earth.
Though you might witness something like the Aurora Borealis since the explosion will instead be primarily high energy radiation. This radiation would be detecable for several light-years away depending on the size of the explosion but eventually lost to all the other radiation permeating deep space. And again it would be nothing compared to the other phenomena in space. Since it would be primarily gamma rays, I would think if it were detected, it might be dismissed as a very weak gamma ray burst.
Most importantly though, I don't think the risks of an accidental explosion from the launch vehicle potentially spreading thousands of grams of plutonium into the atmosphere could ever justify this method even if it's prospects for success were much greater. When the lethal dose of inhaled plutonium is measured in micrograms, you're potentially releasing billions of doses. While uranium wouldn't be as bad, it requires so much more material that it would probably be just as dangerous. Plus, all modern weapons are designed for plutonium.
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'What do you feel when you shoot a Terrorist?'
The Marine shrugged and replied,
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Seuss
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8393691 - 05/12/08 06:01 PM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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> Could it be detected?
Probably, in wavelengths that are not obscured by the sun. Still going to be pretty dim compared to most cosmic events.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: Seuss]
#8393758 - 05/12/08 06:29 PM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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Exactly. As far as visible light, there won't be much to see. Definitely not a good way to announce our presence. Like I said, the only way an alien civilization would probably detect it would be from the gamma ray burst.
One thing I did find interesting about it though was that a study NASA did about detonating nuclear devices in space found that the radiation would be lethal to any manned spacecraft for hundreds of miles when the devices are in the megaton(s) range. Without the atmosphere to attenuate the radiation, it's effects are far worse than they would be at sea-level. Unless some feasible type of shielding could be developed, this vulnerability would likely prevent manned combat in space.
Perhaps even more interesting though was learning how much the danger from radiation of a nuclear explosion is exaggerated or misunderstood.
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Katie Couric, while interviewing a Marine sniper, asked :
'What do you feel when you shoot a Terrorist?'
The Marine shrugged and replied,
'A slight recoil
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Ferris
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8395114 - 05/13/08 12:16 AM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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Wouldn't a nuclear explosion in space be pretty weak since there is no surrounding matter to continue the chain reaction? You'd just see the original charge.
I agree with everyone else though, it would make a weak flare regardless.
If I wanted to send messages through something other than radio waves that would really get someone's attention, I'd figure out how to resonate the magnetic waves of the sun so that it sent out a pulsed message. It'd be a huge undertaking, but it seems possible in my mind.
Also, it's the one thing in our solar system that I'm assuming an alien race might actually be looking at and studying.
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Seuss
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: Ferris]
#8395471 - 05/13/08 04:09 AM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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> Wouldn't a nuclear explosion in space be pretty weak since there is no surrounding matter to continue the chain reaction?
Nope. The chain reaction is completely constrained within the nuclear device itself and gets (nor needs) anything external to function.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Ferris
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: Seuss]
#8395563 - 05/13/08 05:53 AM (6 months, 8 days ago) |
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Right you are. I found this NASA report about nuclear weapons in space, it's very techinical, but interesting nonetheless:
NUCLEAR WEAPON EFFECTS IN SPACE
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: mofo]
#8396689 - 05/13/08 01:14 PM (6 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
mofo said:
I've always wondered, how far into space could say, a 500 kiloton air-burst A-bomb be seen from with the naked eye?
In terms of space, not far at all. Think about it; standing on the moon, you'd be hard pressed to even notice a nuclear explosion on the earth's surface. And the moon is a relative stones'-throw from earth on the scale of interstellar distance. Man-made nuclear reactions are miniscule in magnitude compared to the energy produced by stars.
So obviously we have to figure out how to blow up stars... 
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-oOo-
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. -- `Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' -- Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
-oOo-
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RoosterCogburn
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#8396778 - 05/13/08 01:38 PM (6 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said:
So obviously we have to figure out how to blow up stars...
Convince Dubya that terrorists train there. 
On topic, I'd like to see a 20+ megaton warhead explode in zeroG space... I bet it would be pretty awesome.
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Annom
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: mofo]
#8397280 - 05/13/08 03:23 PM (6 months, 7 days ago) |
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500 kiloton TNT = 2.1*10^15 Joule.
What's the duration of a nuclear explosion? I can't find it.
The power of the sun is 10^27 Watt (Joule/sec).
It will be a weak at far stars in our galaxy. I think it should be possible to communicate if you know where to look for the signal.
I see some problems in the data rate though. How to send more than one bit with an explosion? I want to upload some pictures from earth.
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DieCommie
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: Annom]
#8397329 - 05/13/08 03:37 PM (6 months, 7 days ago) |
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How to send more than one bit with an explosion?
stoned thought - you could 'filter' the gamma rays through different gasses/ions. If you could cycle the gas quick enough (maybe by exciting it) you could get ones and zeros from shifts of absorption/emission lines.
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Behold yon miserable creature. That Point is a Being like ourselves, but confined to the non-dimensional Gulf. He is himself his own World, his own Universe; of any other than himself he can form no conception; he knows not Length, nor Breadth, nor Height, for he has had no experience of them; he has no cognizance even of the number Two; nor has he a thought of Plurality; for he is himself his One and All, being really Nothing. Yet mark his perfect self-contentment, and hence learn his lesson, that to be self-contented is to be vile and ignorant, and that to aspire is better than to be blindly and impotently happy.
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PhanTomCat
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 Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: Seuss]
#8397925 - 05/13/08 06:40 PM (6 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Nope. The chain reaction is completely constrained within the nuclear device itself and gets (nor needs) anything external to function.
Makes me wonder what the explosion would actually look like when detonated while out in space.... Just super intense white flash of light....?
There would be no sound (right?), no clouds, etc.... (?)
Would space as a medium even carry the shock wave of the blast....? 
>^;;^<
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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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DieCommie
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8397928 - 05/13/08 06:42 PM (6 months, 7 days ago) |
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Nope, no shock wave. Just a shit load of radiation.
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Behold yon miserable creature. That Point is a Being like ourselves, but confined to the non-dimensional Gulf. He is himself his own World, his own Universe; of any other than himself he can form no conception; he knows not Length, nor Breadth, nor Height, for he has had no experience of them; he has no cognizance even of the number Two; nor has he a thought of Plurality; for he is himself his One and All, being really Nothing. Yet mark his perfect self-contentment, and hence learn his lesson, that to be self-contented is to be vile and ignorant, and that to aspire is better than to be blindly and impotently happy.
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PhanTomCat
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 Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: DieCommie]
#8397996 - 05/13/08 07:00 PM (6 months, 7 days ago) |
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An intense white light with a secret.... 
>^;;^<
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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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HagbardCeline
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8398570 - 05/13/08 09:12 PM (6 months, 7 days ago) |
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Actually, if you read my above posts, from what I could find there would be very little visible light. If one were detonated between here and the moon, it's doubtful you could even see it during the day.
--------------------
Katie Couric, while interviewing a Marine sniper, asked :
'What do you feel when you shoot a Terrorist?'
The Marine shrugged and replied,
'A slight recoil
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 6,899
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Re: nuclear bombs as space beacons [Re: HagbardCeline]
#8399613 - 05/14/08 02:45 AM (6 months, 7 days ago) |
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Not unless you can see x-rays and gamma rays
--------------------
The life of American Vagabonds
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all.
-Oscar Wilde
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