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 robbyberto
Deus
 
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 5,439
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 Iraq
#8401067 - 05/14/08 02:06 PM (6 months, 4 days ago) |
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So we're there to establish a presence in the middle east for when oil goes to shit, right? I am not sure if I disagree with this or not.
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Minstrel
Talkback is Barberpole
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,389
Loc: Loc: Loc: Loc: Loc: Loc: ...
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No, you are not right, and thread is fail.
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robbyberto
Deus
Registered: 05/11/06
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I do disagree with it. But is there really any other reason for us to be there? I can't think of one. I've talked to my brother in-law who was stationed in Iraq and that is what he conveyed to me. He also believes that we will have operations there similar to what we have had in Korea.
Edited by robbyberto (05/14/08 02:42 PM)
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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Last seen: 10 hours, 5 minutes
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And Germany and Japan as long as the duly elected government wants us there and we want to be there. Germany, Japan and S. Korea can ask us to leave any time. Not surprisingly, they have not.
Either surrender agreements mean something or they don't. If they don't, why bother, just fight until there is no one left. If they do, they must be enforced eventually. If they are not enforced then they mean nothing.
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robbyberto
Deus
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 5,439
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On oil: I believe the best possible outcome would come from simply removing all restrictions on it and using up all the reserves to get rid of it as quickly as possible. We just need to move on. Instead it seems that our government wants to draw it out by pumping more of it into reserves.
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robbyberto
Deus
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 5,439
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
And Germany and Japan as long as the duly elected government wants us there and we want to be there. Germany, Japan and S. Korea can ask us to leave any time. Not surprisingly, they have not.
Either surrender agreements mean something or they don't. If they don't, why bother, just fight until there is no one left. If they do, they must be enforced eventually. If they are not enforced then they mean nothing.
I guess. As long as all of our money is going down the drain as it as when they spend it on interest towards the national debt and social security. Might as well. Our economy is strong enough to dick around quite a bit.
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Yossarian22
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Quote:
And Germany and Japan as long as the duly elected government wants us there and we want to be there. Germany, Japan and S. Korea can ask us to leave any time. Not surprisingly, they have not.
Either surrender agreements mean something or they don't. If they don't, why bother, just fight until there is no one left. If they do, they must be enforced eventually. If they are not enforced then they mean nothing.
I'm not sure what the Hell you're saying with the second paragraph- who talked about "surrender agreements"?
As for the first one, are you seriously comparing our presence in Iraq to Japan and Germany?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Saddam Hussein signed a surrender agreement that stipulated specific acts that were required. He failed to comply. You were unaware of this?
No, I am comparing our future presence in Iraq to those nations.
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Yossarian22
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Oh you mean that agreement which was signed more than a decade ago and in which the only infractions were trivial and were already being punished with an embargo? That agreement?
Quote:
No, I am comparing our future presence in Iraq to those nations.
After how many years of bloody fighting and at the cost of how many millions of lives? And what if their democratically elected government tells us to go fuck ourselves? Do we go peacefully and give up? Or do we start fixing elections, overthrowing governments and exercising political repression?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Millions of lives? Just, please, try to live in the real world for a few moments while you post here. Save the nonsense for the trip reports forum. And yes, if they say go, we go. Of course, I'm sure that, in your mind, anybody who would want us to stay must surely be a puppet. Can you spell D.O.G.M.A.? Because that's all you've got.
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Yossarian22
Stranger
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Millions of lives? Just, please, try to live in the real world for a few moments while you post here. Save the nonsense for the trip reports forum. And yes, if they say go, we go. Of course, I'm sure that, in your mind, anybody who would want us to stay must surely be a puppet. Can you spell D.O.G.M.A.? Because that's all you've got.
You didn't learn last time, did you? Over 1 million people(estimated) have lost their lives since the beginning of the Iraq war and we're nowhere near any end in sight. That's not counting the millions of Iraqi refugees who've seen their lives and livelihoods destroyed. But of course that's not the "real world": the real world is where we're accepted as liberators with the support of the peaceful and compliant Iraqis, where we're in a peaceful occupation of a defeated former power like Japan or Germany.
Not everyone who agrees with the US is a puppet, but al-Maliki is(though not necessarily of the US). The majority of Iraqis want the US to leave, so it stands to reason that a fairly elected government will come to power on a withdrawal platform before Iraq is pacified(if it ever will be, which is highly doubtful). Governmental factions that encourage the US presence would probably (as is currently being done) see the US Army as a weapon to use against their political opponents, which is exactly why it's not good to get into a dirty counterinsurgency campaign in a country we've proved so clueless about.
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Phred
Fred's son
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Quote:
Over 1 million people(estimated) have lost their lives since the beginning of the Iraq war and we're nowhere near any end in sight.
Totally bogus figure. Complete fantasy number.
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That's not counting the millions of Iraqi refugees who've seen their lives and livelihoods destroyed.
Likewise.
Phred
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR
Registered: 09/15/00
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Re: Iraq [Re: Phred]
#8402721 - 05/14/08 09:30 PM (6 months, 4 days ago) |
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I'm not claiming to know whether that number is fantasy or not, but I remembered seeing this article:
Iraq conflict has killed a million, says survey
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Phred
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The methodology of the survey was total crap. It was debunked as soon as it hit the news. Pure fantasy numbers.
You can use their methodology for polling people about their favorite TV shows and which political party they favor. You can't use it for determining deaths of any kind, much less deaths due to combat operations. For that you need death certificates, audits of funeral home coffin sales, records of injuries treated at hospitals, etc.
When you use THOSE methods, you get numbers around five to ten per cent as high as the bogus survey.
Phred
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Iraq [Re: Phred]
#8402942 - 05/14/08 10:09 PM (6 months, 4 days ago) |
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By that reasoning, the Holocaust never happened.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
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LOL.
The Nazis kept incredibly thorough records, dude.
Phred
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Alounacara
Geritol Breath...
Registered: 08/25/03
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Loc: Northern Hemisphere..
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said:
By that reasoning, the Holocaust never happened.
It never happened according to the Muslim faith Baby
I have a uncle that was there and he saw it
His ears are deaf from the howitzers but he was a liberator over there
There is not many of those guys left these days
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Iraq [Re: Phred]
#8403042 - 05/14/08 10:26 PM (6 months, 4 days ago) |
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Ok, bad example.
What about the million+ or so people Saddam supposedly killed? How accurate do you suppose those numbers are?
Do you have a link for data that you believe to be an accurate estimate of deaths due to the Iraq war?
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cleverwise
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Registered: 05/14/08
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
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Last seen: 5 hours, 11 minutes
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Quote:
What about the million+ or so people Saddam supposedly killed? How accurate do you suppose those numbers are?
I have no idea. You'd have to take that up with Amnesty International and the other humanitarian organizations who were trumpeting them. I think a million was higher than any figure I recall seeing. The figure most bandied about was 300,000, though I also recall seeing 600,000 every now and then.
And those figures did not include casualties from the Iraq-Iran war, or the Kuwait invasion or the 1991 Gulf War.
Phred
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