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Invisiblejohnm214
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Justice Kennedy: Just cuz a sentence is constitutionall, =/=prudent; re: incarceration rate of US
    #8442044 - 05/24/08 10:09 PM (6 months, 5 days ago)

I thought the following speech was pretty cool for a justice to make, especially one who has not been among those willing to judicially nullify what in my opinion are immoral and unjust sentences. Take for example the following case:

In Lockyer v. Andrade, Kenedy ruled w/ the majority that it was not unconstitutional for Cali to sentence a man to 25 years to life for stealing 150$ of videotapes, despite what seemed to be a grossly excessive sentence to me, and apparently to Justice Kenedy.

Further, in Ewing v. California, Kennedy voted w/ the majority ruling that the constitution didn't forbid giving a 25 to life sentence to a man who tried to stuff three golf clubs down his pants and leave a store. In this case the theft was worth more, retail value of teh clubs was just under $400 apiece.

Despite these rulings, Kenedy seems to find at least some long prison sentences to be unjust- he specifically mentions the five year minimum for possesion of 5 grams of cocaine base, the weight of a nickle, as an example of an unjust law. He also decries the reduction in pardons granted and the high rate of incarceration in the United States.

So here are some highlites that I found interesting regarding the interplay between the constituion, law, politics, and what makes good public policy.


Do you agree w/ Kenedy, disagree? What are your thoughts on our high rates of incarceration, including cases like I cite above where a man got 25 years to life for stealing 150$ of goods (presumably retail value)? Should Cali taxpayers pay 23k approx a year to house this man for his 25 year minimum sentence? Are their better uses for the over 500k the state will spend on this man?

And do you vote for "tough on crime politicians" generally? What does that phrase connote to you? Positive of negative?


Full speech:
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/publicinfo/speeches/sp_08-09-03.html


Quote:

The legislative branch has the obligation to determine whether a policy is wise. It is a grave mistake to retain a policy just because a court finds it constitutional. Courts may conclude the legislature is permitted to choose long sentences, but that does not mean long sentences are wise or just. Few misconceptions about government are more mischievous than the idea that a policy is sound simply because a court finds it permissible. A court decision does not excuse the political branches or the public from the responsibility for unjust laws.







Quote:

Consider this case: A young man with no previous serious offense is stopped on the George Washington Memorial Parkway near Washington D. C. by United States Park Police. He is stopped for not wearing a seatbelt. A search of the car follows and leads to the discovery of just over 5 grams of crack cocaine in the trunk. The young man is indicted in federal court. He faces a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. If he had taken an exit and left the federal road, his sentence likely would have been measured in terms of months, not years.

United States Marshals can recount the experience of leading a young man away from his family to begin serving his term. His mother says, "How long will my boy be gone?" They say "Ten years" or "15 years." Ladies and gentlemen, I submit to you that a 20-year-old does not know how long ten or fifteen years is.







Quote:

Were we to enter the hidden world of punishment, we should be startled by what we see. Consider its remarkable scale. The nationwide inmate population today is about 2.1 million people. In California, even as we meet, this State alone keeps over 160,000 persons behind bars. In countries such as England, Italy, France and Germany, the incarceration rate is about 1 in 1,000 persons. In the United States it is about 1 in 143.







Quote:

While economic costs, defined in simple dollar terms, are secondary to human costs, they do illustrate the scale of the criminal justice system. The cost of housing, feeding and caring for the inmate population in the United States is over 40 billion dollars per year. In the State of California alone, the cost of maintaining each inmate in the correctional system is about $26,000 per year. And despite the high expenditures in prison, there remain urgent, unmet needs in the prison system.

To compare prison costs with the cost of educating school children is, to some extent, to compare apples with oranges, because the State must assume the full burden of housing, subsistence, and medical care for prisoners. Yet the statistics are troubling. When it costs so much more to incarcerate a prisoner than to educate a child, we should take special care to ensure that we are not incarcerating too many persons for too long.




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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Justice Kennedy: Just cuz a sentence is constitutionall, =/=prudent; re: incarceration rate of U [Re: johnm214]
    #8442751 - 05/25/08 04:20 AM (6 months, 4 days ago)

> What are your thoughts on our high rates of incarceration

The cynic in me suspects that high rates of incarceration are a result of the industries that are supported by the correctional system. Lawmakers protecting their own. However, I doubt the cynic in me is correct on this one. I really don't understand the mentality in the US. Why do the people stand by, and even encourage, such outlandish penalties.

I really don't like mandatory minimums. It is an attempt by the legislative branch to take a check/balance away from the judicial branch, in my opinion. I have no problem with maximum (as in no longer than) clauses in laws, as they add a check/balance rather than remove one. The mandatory minimums remind me of the zero tolerance BS that society has convinced itself is needed.

I'm not so much against the three strike laws, BUT, and this is a big one- the three strikes should only apply to violent crimes. Three times jaywalking, or shoplifting, etc, should not result in a life in prison sentence.

Finally, I feel that any money made from property seizure should be returned to the tax payers in the form of a refund. Even if it only turns out to be a few pennies a year.


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OnlineMadtowntripper
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Re: Justice Kennedy: Just cuz a sentence is constitutionall, =/=prudent; re: incarceration rate of U [Re: Seuss]
    #8443228 - 05/25/08 10:44 AM (6 months, 4 days ago)

Agreed on all counts.


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Offlinedill705
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Re: Justice Kennedy: Just cuz a sentence is constitutionall, =/=prudent; re: incarceration rate of U [Re: Seuss]
    #8446684 - 05/26/08 12:20 PM (6 months, 3 days ago)

:werd:


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Drug control - $12 billion/yr

Incarceration - $30 billion/yr

Police protection - $9.1 billion/yr

Legal adjudication - $4.5 billion/yr

Having a populous trained to recognize their own bodies as government regulated property, and to gorge exclusively on government approved brands of pharmaceuticals and fast food - PRICELESS

This sig brought to you by: ExplosiveMango ~ ripe fruity taste, explosive diahrea!


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Justice Kennedy: Just cuz a sentence is constitutionall, =/=prudent; re: incarceration rate of U [Re: Seuss]
    #8468596 - 05/31/08 08:25 PM (5 months, 29 days ago)

I share your views. I do believe the high rates of incarceration are related to the prison industry though. As more prisoners get produced, more money flows to the guard union, and more lobbying they can do to keep their jobs and demand at record levels.

But I also think that the whole thing is the people's fault. There isn't some huge backlash against the spending and immoral seizures, profits, and incarcerations. People don't like criminals, and that's about all it is.

Here's an intersting opinion piece on the california prison guard industry.

http://www.publicdefenderdude.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_publicdefenderdude_archive.html#108542538648374062

Remember the gray davis recall? State in shamballs? Everyone got funding decreases, teachers, city workers, state ruglators, but the prison industry got a raise in funding.

Funny how that works out.


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