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 Grav
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 2,771
Loc: Plano, TX, USA
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 freedom is losing all hope
#8601844 - 07/06/08 06:57 PM (4 months, 14 days ago) |
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fight club is the first time i heard that line, a few years ago.. and I really didn't understand it, or how something positive could be associated with something that sounded so negative.
ive since found alot of personal truth to the statement,
just wanted to see other's thoughts on this idea
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be your true mind
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Mutatis Mutandis
Disgustipated
Registered: 02/23/08
Posts: 229
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 Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Grav]
#8602015 - 07/06/08 07:36 PM (4 months, 14 days ago) |
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if u have nothing to hope for, nothing will let u down...
but yea having nothing to hope for sounds negative too...
so im not exactly sure
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"what is it called when the assassins accuse the assassin?"
"Sometimes you're flush and sometimes you're bust, and when you're up, it's never as good as it seems, and when you're down, you never think you'll be up again, but life goes on."
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Faaip_De_Oiad
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 1,831
Loc: Malice, Tx
Last seen: 2 months, 13 days
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freedom could be defined a lot of ways depending on the personal connotation of the person asked. The same could be said for the word hope.
I suppose that losing the romantic kind of unrealistic hope could give someone a certain amount of freedom.
But for me losing hope would demoralize and immobilize me, which would mean losing the little "freedom" that I do have.
How does it relate to you personally?
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more art at... myspace.com/deivox
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Mutatis Mutandis
Disgustipated
Registered: 02/23/08
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Quote:
Faaip_De_Oiad said:
for me losing hope would demoralize and immobilize me
i see what u mean...without hope i would have no drive at all
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"what is it called when the assassins accuse the assassin?"
"Sometimes you're flush and sometimes you're bust, and when you're up, it's never as good as it seems, and when you're down, you never think you'll be up again, but life goes on."
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Rahz
Spore Viewer
Registered: 11/10/05
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I think the "letting go" that produces freedom is a letting go of ego. It's egoic hope that contains the dualistic despair by default. Hope creates despair, which creates tension, which creates the need for hope.
In this sense, there is no negative to being hopeless. If the thought of giving up hope creates a sense of sliding into despair, this is ego at work. It would be the ego's version of giving up hope by running to the opposite. To loose all hope, all despair must also be lost?
But, perhaps it's OK to feel some hope after all. You think of something that would be of benefit to the self, and possibly others, and you want it to happen in a certain way. That's good I guess. But the ego will try and interject, and an opposite is created. The key, is to be flexible, and to allow change, appreciating the self while acknowledging the unknown.
Sacral chakra?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,382
Loc: underbelly
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Grav]
#8603429 - 07/07/08 08:45 AM (4 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Grav said:
fight club is the first time i heard that line, a few years ago.. and I really didn't understand it, or how something positive could be associated with something that sounded so negative.
ive since found alot of personal truth to the statement,
just wanted to see other's thoughts on this idea
Not quite IMO. Freedom is non-attachment. You can hope all you want but being attached to that hope being realized causes suffering.
I hope I win the lottery without buying a ticked but I'm not holding my breath.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
embrace death in all the ways it comes no matter how soft or hard. cruel ,tragic,weak,light, gentle, ect how ever. thats life
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Icelander]
#8603878 - 07/07/08 11:44 AM (4 months, 14 days ago) |
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Perhaps only when confronting one's death is your primal essence liberated.
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Edited by backfromthedead (07/07/08 11:56 AM)
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Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,485
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 3 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Icelander]
#8603918 - 07/07/08 11:53 AM (4 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Grav said:
fight club is the first time i heard that line, a few years ago.. and I really didn't understand it, or how something positive could be associated with something that sounded so negative.
ive since found alot of personal truth to the statement,
just wanted to see other's thoughts on this idea
Not quite IMO. Freedom is non-attachment. You can hope all you want but being attached to that hope being realized causes suffering.
I hope I win the lottery without buying a ticked but I'm not holding my breath.
Freedom is non-attachment, & hope could be seen as an attachment, or not really as maybe a hope is just a hope, its not as solid an attachment as a belief.
From my experience non-attachment, in the liberating/buddhist sense of the term is letting go of everything, including the world & universe, & if theres no universe, what is there to hope for!?
Sometimes the most negative sounding thing can have the most positive effect, like i keep talking about emptiness & nothingness and consciously dying, they don't sound like pretty things at all, but they reveal the blissfull nature of the whole.
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What is here?
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WornTraveler
Captain Cannabis
Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 354
Last seen: 12 days, 21 hours
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Chronic777]
#8604179 - 07/07/08 01:23 PM (4 months, 14 days ago) |
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I don't see any truth in that at all. Sounds like something some rich show-business guy came up with when he got bored of his sports car and trophy wife.
Freedom is the ability to determine your own fate. People can say freedom is no attachments, but that isn't the case. I have a girlfriend. I am surrounded by attractive young women all the time. I have the freedom to cheat on my girlfriend, but I choose not to because I value our relationship more than I do a pair of tits, an ass, a tunnel of soft flesh and a pretty face on some girl I don't know. I still am quite free to do whatever I want.
Freedom is certainly NOT the ability to do whatever you want, definitely not total independence. It's just the right to act and accept the consequences, and the right to live how you see fit within the confines of basic moral codes generally accepted by humanity. For instance, the right to decide what to do with your life is generally acceptable in society. The right to kill whoever you want is generally not acceptable.
It all goes back IMO to natural rights & social contracts with Thomas Hobbes and John Locke and all those types. You are never totally free- you give up some freedom (like the freedom to kill whoever you want) in order that you can live more securely. So you might as well forget about total freedom: it's an unattainable goal, and when it does exist, it usually does not exist for very long because your life generally is a good deal shorter.
Overall I think you all are putting a bit too much thought into it. Philosophers who were probably a lot smarter than any one her have put a lot more time thinking about it than any of us here have, and I think they're various theories are enough for now. Unless of course you want to make a career out of philosophy. Barring that, though, anything we say here is like a child playing with blocks and thinking he's building a sky scraper.
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Captain Cannabis, Guardian of Ganja, Sultan of Shrooms, Giver of Green, Tabbed Tripper, and all around Good Guy.
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Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,485
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 3 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: WornTraveler]
#8604334 - 07/07/08 02:16 PM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
WornTraveler said:
Freedom is the ability to determine your own fate. People can say freedom is no attachments, but that isn't the case.
That isn't the case, from your point of view which is distorted by personal interest. (as is all our individual views)
One thing i'm def not doing is putting too much thought into it 
The only philosophy i enjoy is the philosophy that points to the place that cant be expressed through philosophy!
Every "free" choice we make is based on preferences & preferences are just based on objects that are given to us by life, which then forms a sense of personality that we call "me", which is just a passing identity that lasts a lifetime and is in no way constant, as all objects are transient.
The only true lasting freedom is realizing that the individual "you" has none, bringing non-attachment to all objects.
Take a look without personal interest and the freedom that is seen from that place is beyond the word freedom, in that place you are every being, being expressed in inumerable ways. We are all that impersonal being. To reach that place you have to give up your identity, which is hard because we think our identity is our freedom, we feel as if individual expression is freedom but its actually bondage because it is false, it passes & brings no lasting satisfaction, full lasting freedom is realization of the totality of being beyond objectivity, not thinking "i can cheat on my girlfriend if i want" its already decided whether you cheat or not based on past actions & future intentions, none of which are "yours", they were given to you by life.
In a sense individual expression is freedom as it has its own feeling of autonomy, but it gets tiring as no lasting fulfillment comes from it as no object can satisfy the beingness, for a while it seems like satisfaction comes from objects but eventually you see that satisfaction is here all along and its objects that bring unfulfillment because they are impermanent
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What is here?
Edited by Chronic777 (07/07/08 02:25 PM)
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WornTraveler
Captain Cannabis
Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 354
Last seen: 12 days, 21 hours
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Chronic777]
#8604414 - 07/07/08 02:44 PM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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No, I really think you're thinking too much about it. I don't think that you're right about your identity being transient. Science has shown that many personality traits have genetic links- some people are more likely to have short tempters, for instance. Or consider how identical twins (more or less clones), separated at birth and placed in widely different situations, usually still develop very similar tastes, morals, and behaviors. Clearly there's something that is constant, though weather you reach it or not is not guaranteed.
Another example- we've all heard of people like actors whoa re doing what they think they want to do, are at the top of their game living the life, and still are miserable. It's my opinion that this person has missed their true calling in life, that the "best them" is completely different from what they've become.
If the benefits outweigh the negative consequences, I'll go ahead and cheat on my girlfriend. Just because I choose not to on a regular basis does not mean I don't have that freedom. Similarly, on a regular basis, I choose to consume substances which my government has called illegal. I have the freedom to make this choice- just because on a regular basis I choose to break this law does not mean I do not have the freedom to uphold it. For instance, I recently went on a hitch hiking trip for a few days and decided to go clean in case I got searched by cops. At that point, the risks outweighed the benefits, so I exercised my personal freedom and decided not to pick up that 8th of cannabis.
It's as simple as that. Going around fucking every girl I meet, doing whatever I wanted and thinking of no one but myself just because I've decided to cast attachment aside, sure, that's a form of freedom. But it certainly isn't the only form. Especially among drug users I find this a lot, and I find it to be an incredibly selfish belief. If you only think of yourself, you are not much more than an animal. There is no true way to attain the ego-loss you describe on a regular basis. The only thing to even approximate it is to actually *expand* the ego and try and think about a situation from the perspective of everyone, not just yourself.
Further, every decision I've made was not *given* to me by life. Everything about me was done by me. For instance, I consciously decided that I believed in pre-marital sex even though my family is against it. I consciously decided I believed in strong national security and low social spending, even though my teachers taught me the exact opposite. I consciously decided to use marijuana. No one *made* me do any of that. There isn't any rational explanation for why I turned out the way I did- I just did. Further, my fraternal twin (who being fraternal is NOT my genetic clone) has become the opposite of me, having been raised int he same house with the same friends in the same manner. If your theory held true, the number of factors in our lives that are identical (same parenting, same living situation, same teachers) would have all added up to us being identical, and yet we are nothing alike. We still have a great time with each other, we're still brothers, and both of us respect the decision the other has made, but I can't see myself ever having chosen the path he has.
If you need a more concrete idea, he's majoring in Engineering, and I in English: Besides alphabetically speaking, there could not be two concepts farther apart from one another. Something in me that is the essence of me has lead me to a creative field (writing), while his has lead him to a field based entirely on math. I think that more or less debunks your theory right there.
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Captain Cannabis, Guardian of Ganja, Sultan of Shrooms, Giver of Green, Tabbed Tripper, and all around Good Guy.
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Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,485
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 3 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: WornTraveler]
#8604460 - 07/07/08 02:58 PM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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I dont have any theory to proove or disproove!
I dont understand what you refer to when you say my theory?
I dont have any theories or beliefs, certain things come to me spontaniously then they are forgotten & i rest back into nothingness. I don't hold any belief system.
All identities are transient, this is a fact, you will die at the end of your life.
No thing stays with you. No concept belief or thought, it all gets wiped away.
The difference between us is i don't take this to be "my" life, so i don't identify with it & believe i have any particular say in it. Which is definately freedom because no object can define what I Am. So whatever i learn & forget, aquire & lose, whatever comes & goes I Am the same.
You seem to enjoy your beleifs in free will & whatnot so keep it up, whatever pleases you 
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What is here?
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,305
Loc: PNW
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Chronic777]
#8604485 - 07/07/08 03:07 PM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
I don't hold any belief system.
Because everything you believe is factual? C'mon, you frequently express your beliefs on this forum. How can you claim that you do not hold beliefs?
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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backfromthedead
Activated
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Veritas]
#8604491 - 07/07/08 03:09 PM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
I don't hold any belief system.
Because everything you believe is factual? C'mon, you frequently express your beliefs on this forum. How can you claim that you do not hold beliefs?
Its nothingness himself. 
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Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,485
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 3 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Veritas]
#8604526 - 07/07/08 03:20 PM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
I don't hold any belief system.
Because everything you believe is factual? C'mon, you frequently express your beliefs on this forum. How can you claim that you do not hold beliefs?
The words i express come from having no belief system at all & speaking from there. I know that sounds like BS!
Let me explain...if someone actually asked me what i believe in, god etc...in all honesty there is no "thing" i can say that i surely believe in, the only thing i can whole heartidly say i know for 100% & can believe in is
I Am aware that every thing changes
This means i can't firmly believe in any "thing" as all things come & pass in my awareness.
The only thing i believe in is awareness, and when i try to find awareness i cant seem to find a "thing", so i believe in no thing.
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What is here?
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,305
Loc: PNW
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Chronic777]
#8604536 - 07/07/08 03:23 PM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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That does sound like BS. If you do not believe anything, then your expressions of belief on this forum would not be so consistent. IOW, if you were just "going with the flow," and not clinging to any belief, your expressions would vary from day to day. Instead, you post basically the same exact things over and over. This means that you believe something. In fact, you believe many things. Anyone who reads this forum is made aware of what you believe.
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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backfromthedead
Activated
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Chronic777]
#8604544 - 07/07/08 03:25 PM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
I don't hold any belief system.
Because everything you believe is factual? C'mon, you frequently express your beliefs on this forum. How can you claim that you do not hold beliefs?
The words i express come from having no belief system at all & speaking from there. I know that sounds like BS!
Let me explain...if someone actually asked me what i believe in, god etc...in all honesty there is no "thing" i can say that i surely believe in, the only thing i can whole heartidly say i know for 100% & can believe in is
I Am aware that every thing changes
This means i can't firmly believe in any "thing" as all things come & pass in my awareness.
The only thing i believe in is awareness, and when i try to find awareness i cant seem to find a "thing", so i believe in no thing.
Hello Mr. 'no thing' I believe in 'a thing' its called God, now how do we work together??
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Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,485
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 3 hours, 22 minutes
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Quote:
Veritas said:
That does sound like BS. If you do not believe anything, then your expressions of belief on this forum would not be so consistent. IOW, if you were just "going with the flow," and not clinging to any belief, your expressions would vary from day to day. Instead, you post basically the same exact things over and over. This means that you believe something. In fact, you believe many things. Anyone who reads this forum is made aware of what you believe.
You believe you know what i believe, but i don't even know what i believe!
Well done!
I have had many beliefs, many many beliefs, just checkout my diary!
But every night i go to bed or every morning i wake up none of them seem to stick to me anymore, theres nothing i tell myself for reassurance, theres nothing i hold onto, i used to hold onto so many things but over the last few months theres nothing that stays with me anymore & this isnt out of choice or new beliefs its just happened.
I have realized nothing stays with me, no concept can stay with what I Am and i find this very freeing, you can say that that itself is a belief, but its more of a realization that no belief is worth believing because memory is as fickle as time.
So you can say i believe in impermanence of objects and the eternal reality of non objectivity. But ill forget that in a few minutes too.
Quote:
backfromthedead said:
Quote:
Chronic777 said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
I don't hold any belief system.
Because everything you believe is factual? C'mon, you frequently express your beliefs on this forum. How can you claim that you do not hold beliefs?
The words i express come from having no belief system at all & speaking from there. I know that sounds like BS!
Let me explain...if someone actually asked me what i believe in, god etc...in all honesty there is no "thing" i can say that i surely believe in, the only thing i can whole heartidly say i know for 100% & can believe in is
I Am aware that every thing changes
This means i can't firmly believe in any "thing" as all things come & pass in my awareness.
The only thing i believe in is awareness, and when i try to find awareness i cant seem to find a "thing", so i believe in no thing.
Hello Mr. 'no thing' I believe in 'a thing' its called God, now how do we work together??
You believe god is a "thing"?
So i take it you've seen this "thing", what does god look like?
To me a thing implies an object?
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What is here?
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WornTraveler
Captain Cannabis
Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 354
Last seen: 12 days, 21 hours
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: Chronic777]
#8604618 - 07/07/08 03:46 PM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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I'm getting a very strong feeling that at least one individual in this thread is seriously out to lunch. And it's not me. 
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Captain Cannabis, Guardian of Ganja, Sultan of Shrooms, Giver of Green, Tabbed Tripper, and all around Good Guy.
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Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,485
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 3 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: freedom is losing all hope [Re: WornTraveler]
#8604666 - 07/07/08 03:59 PM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
WornTraveler said:
I'm getting a very strong feeling that at least one individual in this thread is seriously out to lunch. And it's not me.
Well it cant be me as i dont take myself to be an individual
Anybody else?
Im not suprised i come off krazy I Am trying to talk about something that words cant even touch, no wonder so many people "debate" against me
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What is here?
Edited by Chronic777 (07/07/08 04:06 PM)
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