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 PhanTomCat
Wildcat that Never Was....
 
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,710
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 hours, 57 minutes
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 Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG....
#8414914 - 05/17/08 11:11 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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For all of you who think that words don't matter, have no meaning (or more than one meaning), and have no value, guess again....
You were obviously using the wrong words....
"""A word is a unit of language that carries meaning and consists of one or more -
morphemes which are linked more or less tightly together, and has a phonetical value.
Typically a word will consist of a root or stem and zero or more affixes.
Words can be combined to create phrases, clauses, and sentences.
A word consisting of two or more stems joined together form a compound.
A word combined with another word or part of a word form a portmanteau."""
From: Wikipedia: Word
>^;;^<
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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 6,144
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 Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8415005 - 05/17/08 11:37 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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...if you're going to cite a dictionary definition in an effort to prove a philosophical point (which basically means you have no original argument), at least cite something OTHER than a site where anyone can edit definitions at their whim.
:P
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the truth will set you free...
...and everything I say is true.
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PhanTomCat
Wildcat that Never Was....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,710
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 hours, 57 minutes
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 Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: deCypher]
#8415023 - 05/17/08 11:40 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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I have no argument with that.... 
>^;;^<
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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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OrgoneConclusion
Oh, bee hive!
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 7,963
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8415097 - 05/18/08 12:04 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Pussy!
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Tim: Hey Aimee, did you hear the one about the two bears who went to The Vatican?
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PhanTomCat
Wildcat that Never Was....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,710
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 hours, 57 minutes
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I know, that is why nobody usually responds to my posts.... 
Wiki is not the defining "rule", and I didn't start with a real argument.... 
I am a pussy, and I am fine with that.....
Shyt~, did I just do it again.....?
>^;;^<
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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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two_rivers
mmm..
Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 325
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8416442 - 05/18/08 01:50 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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words don't seem to capture the essence of what it is they represent... but.. it's all we've got for now.
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Oweyervishice
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 1,245
Last seen: 18 hours, 1 minute
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: two_rivers]
#8416558 - 05/18/08 02:21 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
two_rivers said:
words don't seem to capture the essence of what it is they represent... but.. it's all we've got for now.
Music expresses some things more clearly to me than any words can. 
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figmentfragment
seriousfraulicking
Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 483
Loc: Kiwi Land.
Last seen: 9 hours, 31 minutes
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: Oweyervishice]
#8417151 - 05/18/08 04:43 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Words are ambiguous, because of our use of them. Our personal definition.
Even when "definition" is agreed upon in some loose sense, there is still much room for perceptional misunderstanding.
For example I could put my hand in hot water, and say "ouch that is fucking hot" to someone.
We can generally assume, granted that this person even speaks English, that we have a pretty accurate idea of what the word "hot" means...however when the other person puts their hand in the water, they find it to be not "hot" at all.
This is not a discussion about why the water is not hot, or anything like that.
What I am saying here, is that even when words have clear definition, and agreed definition...there is still room for perceptional error.
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"I am the one who has felt most deeply the stuttering of the tongue in its relation to thought."
"I see myself wrapped in lies, which do not seem to penetrate my soul, as if they are not really a part of me. They are like costumes."
    
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 9,238
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 14 hours, 52 minutes
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Quote:
figmentfragment said:
Words are ambiguous, because of our use of them. Our personal definition.
No, words are only ambiguous when they are MIS-used.
If someone thinks water is hot... it IS best described by THEM as hot.
If another person thinks the same water is not hot... they can use a different descriptor.
A thermometer can make the final judgement.
Doesn't change the meaning of the word, "Hot".
Not at all.
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -Inigo Montoya
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figmentfragment
seriousfraulicking
Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 483
Loc: Kiwi Land.
Last seen: 9 hours, 31 minutes
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: Cervantes]
#8417642 - 05/18/08 06:52 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
Quote:
figmentfragment said:
Words are ambiguous, because of our use of them. Our personal definition.
No, words are only ambiguous when they are MIS-used.
If someone thinks water is hot... it IS best described by THEM as hot.
If another person thinks the same water is not hot... they can use a different descriptor.
A thermometer can make the final judgement.
Doesn't change the meaning of the word, "Hot".
Not at all.
No, the "meaning" of hot does not change at all, which was part of my point.
I used the example of hot water, and the word hot for this exact reason...it is a relatively basic experiment, using a commonly understood word.
Now I should have went further on to explain, that if I had put my hand in the water, and exclaimed that it was hot, and the other person hadn't...to determine that they infact didn't think the water was hot...Despite the accuracy of our shared definition of hot, they would relate my idea of hot, to their idea of hot, and be none the wiser.
"If another person thinks the same water is not hot... they can use a different descriptor."
I expected this kind of argument, and so I replied in advance in my original post by saying:
"This is not a discussion about why the water is not hot, or anything like that."
"A thermometer can make the final judgement."
A thermometerdoes not judge whether something is "hot" or otherwise. It simply gives a reading.
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"I am the one who has felt most deeply the stuttering of the tongue in its relation to thought."
"I see myself wrapped in lies, which do not seem to penetrate my soul, as if they are not really a part of me. They are like costumes."
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 9,238
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 14 hours, 52 minutes
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Quote:
figmentfragment said:
Quote:
Vervantes said:
"A thermometer can make the final judgement."
A thermometerdoes not judge whether something is "hot" or otherwise. It simply gives a reading.
Why are you playing semantic games with me, if your point is that words have no set meaning?
Also, simply repeating your previous post, using different words, does not change my opinion of the point you are making.
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -Inigo Montoya
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Quote:
figmentfragment said:
Quote:
Cervantes said:
Quote:
figmentfragment said:
Words are ambiguous, because of our use of them. Our personal definition.
No, words are only ambiguous when they are MIS-used.
If someone thinks water is hot... it IS best described by THEM as hot.
If another person thinks the same water is not hot... they can use a different descriptor.
A thermometer can make the final judgement.
Doesn't change the meaning of the word, "Hot".
Not at all.
No, the "meaning" of hot does not change at all, which was part of my point.
I used the example of hot water, and the word hot for this exact reason...it is a relatively basic experiment, using a commonly understood word.
Now I should have went further on to explain, that if I had put my hand in the water, and exclaimed that it was hot, and the other person hadn't...to determine that they infact didn't think the water was hot...Despite the accuracy of our shared definition of hot, they would relate my idea of hot, to their idea of hot, and be none the wiser.
"If another person thinks the same water is not hot... they can use a different descriptor."
I expected this kind of argument, and so I replied in advance in my original post by saying:
"This is not a discussion about why the water is not hot, or anything like that."
"A thermometer can make the final judgement."
A thermometerdoes not judge whether something is "hot" or otherwise. It simply gives a reading.
No offense, but I think you missed his point. I happen to agree with figmentfragment (but I might also agree with you). It depends on what kind of words we are talking about. Maybe this will help:
When I say dog, we both have an idea of what a dog is in our minds, but we are almost certainly not thinking of the same idea of dog. Words describing nouns are approximations. Words like 'and, for, because' (ie helping words) are strictly defined and there is very little room for interpretation.
But even this gets a little hazy, cause when I say 'two', and we both think of 'two', we are almost certainly not thinking of the exact same representation of 'two'.
So words do have definitions we might find in a dictionary, but these definitions are only to help us approximate our own understanding of the word.
So you're both right, in a sense. Words in a dictionary are stricly defined and universal, words as we understand them in our head are not.
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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figmentfragment
seriousfraulicking
Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 483
Loc: Kiwi Land.
Last seen: 9 hours, 31 minutes
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: Cervantes]
#8417866 - 05/18/08 07:50 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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"semantics games?"
my point, in that example was specifically that it goes beyond set meanings of words (not that they have none) into deeper interpretation and misunderstanding.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -Inigo Montoya "
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"I am the one who has felt most deeply the stuttering of the tongue in its relation to thought."
"I see myself wrapped in lies, which do not seem to penetrate my soul, as if they are not really a part of me. They are like costumes."
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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If anyone is more interested in the way humans understand words, I suggest first reading Hume's work on 'Impressions and Ideas' and then maybe Thomas Quine's 'How to do things with words' and Wittgenstein's 'Tractatus' and 'Philosophical Investigations'.
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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mushbaby
Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,037
Loc: on a hill
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8417983 - 05/18/08 08:21 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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I think words are like everything else. They become cheap when overused. An example would be a word like awesome. This can actually be an important adjective. Describing something that inspires awe. Not an easy achievement.
But when overused as it is now it becomes meaningless because everthing becomes 
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Maybe - and that's final.
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 9,238
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 14 hours, 52 minutes
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: fubuvsfitch]
#8418111 - 05/18/08 09:01 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
fubuvsfitch said:
When I say dog, we both have an idea of what a dog is in our minds, but we are almost certainly not thinking of the same idea of dog.
This is known as an archetype.
Words like, "Dog" or "Lion" create images in everyone's minds... and our understanding of the word "Dog" or "Lion" is the archetypal image of a dog or a lion painted in our mind.
Is my idea of a dog the same as yours? It doesn't matter. We BOTH recognize a dog when we see one.
Quote:
But even this gets a little hazy, cause when I say 'two', and we both think of 'two', we are almost certainly not thinking of the exact same representation of 'two'.
Bad example.
If you hear the word, "Two" and don't think of two "Ones" you are using the word incorrectly, or you are very bad at math.
Quote:
So words do have definitions we might find in a dictionary, but these definitions are only to help us approximate our own understanding of the word.
I agree... but when people say, "Words have no meaning." they are full of shit.
Quote:
So you're both right, in a sense. Words in a dictionary are stricly defined and universal, words as we understand them in our head are not.
Yes, but when there is confusion... why not agree to use the word as DEFINED. So many Shroomerites in this forum (not you specifically) pretend words have no meaning so they don't have to defend their bullshit claims.
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -Inigo Montoya
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: Cervantes]
#8419952 - 05/19/08 12:44 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Cervantes said:
Quote:
Is my idea of a dog the same as yours? It doesn't matter. We BOTH recognize a dog when we see one.
This is true, that we both recognize a dog. But we don't think of the same dog. We can roughly approximate four legged mammal, etc, but we are not truly thinking of the same thing, although our similar recognition makes the word practical.
Quote:
Bad example.
If you hear the word, "Two" and don't think of two "Ones" you are using the word incorrectly, or you are very bad at math.
I think you missed the point here. Even when you conjure up the image of two ones, the ones in your mind look different than the ones in my mind. We are not thinking of EXACTLY the same thing, just approximately the same thing. You may think of a block '2', I may think of a '2' with a loop.
Quote:
I agree... but when people say, "Words have no meaning." they are full of shit.
Right. They do have meaning as defined, but definitions are arbitrary. Which dictionary are you using?
Quote:
Yes, but when there is confusion... why not agree to use the word as DEFINED. So many Shroomerites in this forum (not you specifically) pretend words have no meaning so they don't have to defend their bullshit claims.
We do use the word as defined, we just don't THINK of the same EXACT thing.
To prove my point, I will mail you an envelope with my definition of 'dog'. You mail me your definition. They will almost certainly not be the same.
I have granted you that we should and do settle on defined terms in order to make practical use of words. However, you are failing to recognize that we almost never have the EXACT same image or description of the words in our mind. You brain isn't a dictionary with exact definitions. That's why dictionarys exist. To make practical use of shared definitions from ideas and approximations that don't reflect each other from mind to mind.
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 9,238
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 14 hours, 52 minutes
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: fubuvsfitch]
#8420112 - 05/19/08 01:48 PM (6 months, 23 hours ago) |
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If you are going to quote my previous post... you'd think you should read it first.
Parroting what I just said... like it was your idea... and not mine... is obnoxious... especially when you QUOTE me SAYING the SAME thing FIRST.
Why not say, "I agree... good point."?
Also, you formatted your quotes in an odd way, and it makes your thoughts quite diifficult to read.
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -Inigo Montoya
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: Cervantes]
#8420161 - 05/19/08 02:01 PM (6 months, 23 hours ago) |
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Dude what are you talking about?
You said it doesn't matter if we are thinking of the same dog, I am saying that we ARE thinking of different dogs. I didn't parrot anything you said.
And it does matter, especially in philosophical debate where exact conveyance of ideas is extremely important. That's why numerous philosopher have attempted to tackle the issue of linguistics. Wittgenstein, Austin, Quine, Hume, Kant, etc.
Trust me, I've read your posts, and I get what you're saying about practicality, but you don't understand what I'm saying about the importance of exact conveyance.
And if you find that difficult to read, I apologize. But really I think you just wanted something to bitch about.
I don't think I'm the one being obnoxious here. I have made concessions. "why not say I agree?" I have! On several occasions I have made concessions.
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
Edited by fubuvsfitch (05/19/08 02:35 PM)
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: Words.... EVERYONE is WRONG.... [Re: fubuvsfitch]
#8420223 - 05/19/08 02:19 PM (6 months, 23 hours ago) |
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Quote:
This is known as an archetype.
Words like, "Dog" or "Lion" create images in everyone's minds... and our understanding of the word "Dog" or "Lion" is the archetypal image of a dog or a lion painted in our mind.
Is my idea of a dog the same as yours? It doesn't matter. We BOTH recognize a dog when we see one.
Are these archetypal images all the same from one mind to the next? I hardly think so.
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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