|
Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! Please  login or  register to post messages and view our members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, encrypted messages, file attachments, board customizations, and much more!
|
 AlCapwn
Entheo-Josh
Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2,754
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 23 hours, 32 minutes
|
 Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable.
#8379424 - 05/08/08 08:52 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Are you an existentialist? How can you be happy knowing that our entire existence is just a mathematical meaningless absurdity? Subjectivity, my friend. There are two realities that simultaneously exist, objective reality and subjective reality. Objective reality is what worries people the most, as it is very large, very dark and makes almost no sense whatsoever. It's pretty ominous. Subjective reality is the reality that most happy people live in. You may deem this as ignorant/oblivious, but it's more complicated than that. What this boils down to is meaning.
Meaning is entirely subjective. What something means to someone doesn't mean the same to you. Meaning is like a connection between yourself and the outside world to things that exist objectively. Keeping that in mind, you can come to the conclusion that everything that has ever and will ever exist does have meaning and importance. Everything from the largest mountain, to the smallest pebble, things factual or fictional, tangible or intangible mean something. People place too much importance on self and not enough importance on else. Not that other things should be more important or meaningful than yourself, just equally. Dismiss nothing, embrace everything. A happy existentialist is a superior existentialist.
--------------------
Don't just eat a mushroom stem and see colors, eat the whole bag and see God one time in your life. A real God! Not some storybook bullshit God that's been fucking kicked in your head for the last 2000 years that you just accept with no logic what so ever, a real God that works for you. Everytime you deny your own logic, deny your own instincts, you deny your own God you fucking moron. - Doug Stanhope
|
 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,382
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8379453 - 05/08/08 08:58 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
embrace this
--------------------
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
embrace death in all the ways it comes no matter how soft or hard. cruel ,tragic,weak,light, gentle, ect how ever. thats life
|
AlCapwn
Entheo-Josh
Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2,754
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 23 hours, 32 minutes
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8379485 - 05/08/08 09:04 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Easily <3
--------------------
Don't just eat a mushroom stem and see colors, eat the whole bag and see God one time in your life. A real God! Not some storybook bullshit God that's been fucking kicked in your head for the last 2000 years that you just accept with no logic what so ever, a real God that works for you. Everytime you deny your own logic, deny your own instincts, you deny your own God you fucking moron. - Doug Stanhope
|
backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 3 months, 24 days
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8379501 - 05/08/08 09:07 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
'What something means to someone doesn't mean the same to you.'
Hell yes. I was in a cafe the other day eating a sandwich and this dude came in...
The owner was like, 'Hey, how are you...??'
He's like, 'I am perfect. But, I'm afraid to ask anybody cause they might burst my bubble.'
There is some subtle and some not so subtle communication going on that points to a world of meaning that is just out of reach for the average sleeper, imo.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,382
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8379505 - 05/08/08 09:07 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
And this
--------------------
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
embrace death in all the ways it comes no matter how soft or hard. cruel ,tragic,weak,light, gentle, ect how ever. thats life
|
AlCapwn
Entheo-Josh
Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2,754
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 23 hours, 32 minutes
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: backfromthedead]
#8379540 - 05/08/08 09:14 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Yeah, words are a good way to throw potential meaning towards someone's core. That's why some literature is so great. Too bad people don't pick up on it often enough.
Also, how can you not love pistol toting Jesus?
--------------------
Don't just eat a mushroom stem and see colors, eat the whole bag and see God one time in your life. A real God! Not some storybook bullshit God that's been fucking kicked in your head for the last 2000 years that you just accept with no logic what so ever, a real God that works for you. Everytime you deny your own logic, deny your own instincts, you deny your own God you fucking moron. - Doug Stanhope
|
backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,590
Last seen: 3 months, 24 days
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8379558 - 05/08/08 09:17 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
'...how can you not love pistol toting Jesus?'
Wrath of God no longer necessary.
--------------------
|
AlCapwn
Entheo-Josh
Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2,754
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 23 hours, 32 minutes
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: backfromthedead]
#8379570 - 05/08/08 09:19 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Hahahahaha
--------------------
Don't just eat a mushroom stem and see colors, eat the whole bag and see God one time in your life. A real God! Not some storybook bullshit God that's been fucking kicked in your head for the last 2000 years that you just accept with no logic what so ever, a real God that works for you. Everytime you deny your own logic, deny your own instincts, you deny your own God you fucking moron. - Doug Stanhope
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
 
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,110
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8379586 - 05/08/08 09:22 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
AlCapwn said:
Are you an existentialist? How can you be happy knowing that our entire existence is just a mathematical meaningless absurdity? Subjectivity, my friend. There are two realities that simultaneously exist, objective reality and subjective reality. Objective reality is what worries people the most, as it is very large, very dark and makes almost no sense whatsoever. It's pretty ominous. Subjective reality is the reality that most happy people live in. You may deem this as ignorant/oblivious, but it's more complicated than that. What this boils down to is meaning.
Meaning is entirely subjective. What something means to someone doesn't mean the same to you. Meaning is like a connection between yourself and the outside world to things that exist objectively. Keeping that in mind, you can come to the conclusion that everything that has ever and will ever exist does have meaning and importance. Everything from the largest mountain, to the smallest pebble, things factual or fictional, tangible or intangible mean something. People place too much importance on self and not enough importance on else. Not that other things should be more important or meaningful than yourself, just equally. Dismiss nothing, embrace everything. A happy existentialist is a superior existentialist.
Ah, well said.
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 6,144
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8379674 - 05/08/08 09:45 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
AlCapwn said:Keeping that in mind, you can come to the conclusion that everything that has ever and will ever exist does have meaning and importance. Everything from the largest mountain, to the smallest pebble, things factual or fictional, tangible or intangible mean something.
Good post, but I have to disagree. Assigning meaning to everything in the universe seems like a cheap way out--after all, if everything has meaning then everything just as easily has no meaning. There needs to be levels of meaning for the concept itself to make any sense.
Let me pose to you: how exactly do you define "meaning"?
--------------------
the truth will set you free...
...and everything I say is true.
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,110
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: deCypher]
#8379747 - 05/08/08 10:02 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Well, Camus' whole trip was that it was a total copout to assign meaning to the absurdity of existence, and in some ways I think he's right. My thing, though, is that no matter what are unable to avoid constructing stories about the world around us. Whether or myths are theological, scientific or whatever-the-fuck, we'll always tell them because we can only relate to the world around us in a limited way. We can't have be omniscient and thus we filter and edit the information we take in and replicate. Because of this I think it's preferable to choose the stories we construct about our existence conscious of how they cause us to relate to one another and our environment. In this sense, we choose meaning.
|
AlCapwn
Entheo-Josh
Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2,754
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 23 hours, 32 minutes
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: deCypher]
#8380207 - 05/08/08 11:41 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Niamh is on the same page as I am with her last post. Also consider that something meaning nothing can mean something.
Anyways, to define meaning. Meaning is the importance/significance of an object/event/anything in relation to your existence and environment. Your subjective reality. If it even brings you a thought, then it has meaning.
Water is meaningful to you because it keeps you alive, it is the essence of all life on earth but there is also beauty in water. If you were not attached to water you may not find it as beautiful, as it is just a common clear substance after all. There are hundreds of clear liquids, but you would not say that Isopropyl Alcohol is beautiful because it has less significance to you or your existence than water does.
Is the essence of life in this glass? Or is the essence of sterility in this glass? (Although Alcohol may mean something to you because it can aid you in getting tons and tons of delicious mushrooms  )
To add: If the universe means absolutely nothing, then every aspect of life down to the obligation to breathe becomes a chore and you might as well kill yourself. Ask yourself this: If the universe has no meaning or purpose, why do you bother living? Happiness means nothing, being alive means nothing, getting laid means nothing. Absolutely everything you can possibly think of means nothing. Then why are you still alive? If you stay alive, then surely life means something.
--------------------
Don't just eat a mushroom stem and see colors, eat the whole bag and see God one time in your life. A real God! Not some storybook bullshit God that's been fucking kicked in your head for the last 2000 years that you just accept with no logic what so ever, a real God that works for you. Everytime you deny your own logic, deny your own instincts, you deny your own God you fucking moron. - Doug Stanhope
|
AlCapwn
Entheo-Josh
Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2,754
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 23 hours, 32 minutes
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: deCypher]
#8380229 - 05/08/08 11:48 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Oh sorry, I also wanted to add that there can be different levels of meaning, it just depends on the person/environment. But nothing is absolutely meaningless, perhaps only meaningless to some.
--------------------
Don't just eat a mushroom stem and see colors, eat the whole bag and see God one time in your life. A real God! Not some storybook bullshit God that's been fucking kicked in your head for the last 2000 years that you just accept with no logic what so ever, a real God that works for you. Everytime you deny your own logic, deny your own instincts, you deny your own God you fucking moron. - Doug Stanhope
|
justAkid
Member of myCulture
Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 238
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 1 month, 22 days
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8380268 - 05/08/08 11:59 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Those were the best idea's I have ever read on this site.
--------------------
Trust thyself.
|
deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 6,144
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8380353 - 05/09/08 12:25 AM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
AlCapwn said:
Niamh is on the same page as I am with her last post. Also consider that something meaning nothing can mean something.
Anyways, to define meaning. Meaning is the importance/significance of an object/event/anything in relation to your existence and environment. Your subjective reality. If it even brings you a thought, then it has meaning.
Water is meaningful to you because it keeps you alive, it is the essence of all life on earth but there is also beauty in water. If you were not attached to water you may not find it as beautiful, as it is just a common clear substance after all. There are hundreds of clear liquids, but you would not say that Isopropyl Alcohol is beautiful because it has less significance to you or your existence than water does.
Is the essence of life in this glass? Or is the essence of sterility in this glass? (Although Alcohol may mean something to you because it can aid you in getting tons and tons of delicious mushrooms )
To add: If the universe means absolutely nothing, then every aspect of life down to the obligation to breathe becomes a chore and you might as well kill yourself. Ask yourself this: If the universe has no meaning or purpose, why do you bother living? Happiness means nothing, being alive means nothing, getting laid means nothing. Absolutely everything you can possibly think of means nothing. Then why are you still alive? If you stay alive, then surely life means something.
Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Earlier, you state that everything in the universe, no matter what, has meaning, and yet here you say that meaning is entirely subjective: i.e., things only have meaning if they have relevance to my reality. In the latter case, quasars, people in China, and arcane topological set theory have no relevance to my reality, and therefore have no meaning, yet in the former, they must. Which is it?
And, heh, I'd like to agree with your main point that we give things meaning and/or purpose. However, rationally, I'm forced to fall in with the die-hard nihilists in accepting that the universe has no meaning. However, to say that I might as well kill myself as a result of this seems a bit of a stretch--after all, in deciding to kill myself I would be granting death more of a meaning than life, which I logically couldn't do in the first place. I suppose starving to death by passively doing nothing would be a better answer, but even then you're still consciously giving a greater purpose to sitting there doing nothing. The only true answer to this dilemma is to say that nothing matters anyway, and so it doesn't matter whether I live or die. (i.e., sure, I might be doing things, but I could care less about my motivations for doing such--thus doing away with the entire necessity for meaning altogether.)
(This might just be a blatant cop-out for why I choose to live rather than die, but it's an appropriately apathetically nihilistic cop-out :P).
--------------------
the truth will set you free...
...and everything I say is true.
|
AlCapwn
Entheo-Josh
Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2,754
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 23 hours, 32 minutes
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: deCypher]
#8380415 - 05/09/08 01:00 AM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
|
|
Well, meaning is entirely subjective, but everything means something to someone or somethings subjectivity. So while not everything means something to you, it might mean something to something or someone that means to you. Ultimately, objectively, nothing means anything (Like you believe in). I sincerely doubt that absolutely nothing means anything to you. If you add up everything in everyone's subjective universes, then everything would mean something to someone. Take me alone, the fact that something exists is enough to make me think about it, so pretty much everything means something to me. And that makes me who I am, so if I mean something to someone, then everything means something to them too. I'm having this conversation about the meaning of everything with you, so if everything didn't mean something to me then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Right there, you see that existence as a whole, just the fact that it's there, has made us have this conversation and therefore it means something. Because of this post, everything means something to you because you are thinking of everything albeit not individually. (But when you think of an object, you don't think of every atom or particle anyways)
Down the line, people in china affect your reality. They manufacture a lot of the stuff you use, they support the economy of the country you live in. You share a world with them. They are part of your universe, and you can think about them. They mean something to your reality for sure.
If I've contradicted my self, it's probably just because I'm using different examples to explain one grand idea or that I just suck haha
Everything in the universe has meaning no matter what -> subjectively. What it's meaning is is different to different people, even if they don't always realize what it means.
Objectively, the universe has no meaning whatsoever. You said that rationally you'd have to agree with nihilists, but that's because you're thinking objectively. You rationalize objectively (which is how it's supposed to work if you want to get anything done), meaning only comes in on the subjectivity level.
I'd like to apologize for my blatant overuse of these words and their variants: subjective, objective, reality, universe and meaning.
--------------------
Don't just eat a mushroom stem and see colors, eat the whole bag and see God one time in your life. A real God! Not some storybook bullshit God that's been fucking kicked in your head for the last 2000 years that you just accept with no logic what so ever, a real God that works for you. Everytime you deny your own logic, deny your own instincts, you deny your own God you fucking moron. - Doug Stanhope
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,110
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: deCypher]
#8383339 - 05/09/08 09:34 PM (6 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Cypher said:
And, heh, I'd like to agree with your main point that we give things meaning and/or purpose. However, rationally, I'm forced to fall in with the die-hard nihilists in accepting that the universe has no meaning. However, to say that I might as well kill myself as a result of this seems a bit of a stretch--after all, in deciding to kill myself I would be granting death more of a meaning than life, which I logically couldn't do in the first place. I suppose starving to death by passively doing nothing would be a better answer, but even then you're still consciously giving a greater purpose to sitting there doing nothing. The only true answer to this dilemma is to say that nothing matters anyway, and so it doesn't matter whether I live or die. (i.e., sure, I might be doing things, but I could care less about my motivations for doing such--thus doing away with the entire necessity for meaning altogether.)
An all of this leads back around to choosing meaning. You choose to commit suicide or to go on living, you choose to starve or to eat, you choose to watch America's Next Top Model or read Camus, why? Because for whatever reason in the moment of decision you prefer one over the other. This is what it is to choose meaning.
Camus was right that existence is objectively absurd, yet he was wrong when he said it was a copout to find any sense of meaning, because his own solution (living well in spite of the absurdity) is the very process of choosing meaning. You choose what it means to live well.
If you truly didn't attribute any sense of meaning to your choices, you'd behave completely erratically with no continuity from one moment to the next. Whether you are conscious of it or not, you can't help but value some things more than others, even if the only thing you are valuing is familiarity. (And that would be a cowardly, boring existence as far as I'm concerned!)
|
Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,304
Loc: PNW
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: AlCapwn]
#8383362 - 05/09/08 09:40 PM (6 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If the universe means absolutely nothing, then every aspect of life down to the obligation to breathe becomes a chore and you might as well kill yourself. Ask yourself this: If the universe has no meaning or purpose, why do you bother living? Happiness means nothing, being alive means nothing, getting laid means nothing. Absolutely everything you can possibly think of means nothing. Then why are you still alive? If you stay alive, then surely life means something.
Why is meaning the only thing that matters? What about enjoyment? Isn't it possible to enjoy things simply because you do, and not because you decide that they are meaningful? We need not deem something important and significant in order to enjoy it.
--------------------
No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
|
NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,110
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: Veritas]
#8383412 - 05/09/08 09:55 PM (6 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
To enjoy one thing more than another is to attribute the meaning of pleasure to the prefered item or feeling.
|
Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,304
Loc: PNW
|
Re: Existentialism: Where Camus went wrong/how not to be miserable. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#8383422 - 05/09/08 10:00 PM (6 months, 10 days ago) |
|
|
Pleasure is an experience, not an attributed meaning. Perhaps you are referring to a developed preference for pleasurable experiences?
--------------------
No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
| |
|
|
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit 
Reply 
Quote 
