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 MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,399
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 Does Pornography Degrade Women
#8367147 - 05/05/08 11:14 PM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Somebody started this thread at bodybuilding.com, and it sparked my interested, so I decided to bring the discussion here (to a more intelligent group.  )
Here was my reply:
The intent of pornography is clearly to stimulate male sexual desire - it is not art. Nobody views porno because of its aesthetic beauty or enticing story-line. Pornography does not appeal to the same senses that enjoy a wondrous landscape or a good meal. It stimulates an entirely different and much more powerful part of the male psyche, sexuality. Labeling pornography as art is ridiculous. It is about sex and serves no other purpose.
In pornography, the woman is merely a means to an end. Do you appreciate the actual women in pornography or what is being done to the women? If instead of taking a 12" cock into her rectum she was reciting a Gregorian chant, would it still be sexuality arousing? I doubt it. I think it would be hard to make an argument against pornography being degrading to women. Most of the responses here are along the lines of "well... she consented to doing it," which is totally non-sequitur. I can consent to being used as a toilet, but the fact that I've consented to this doesn't make it any less degrading.
"Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means to an end." (Kant)
I don't believe pornography turns well-to-do people into serial killers or that it should be banned or any of that nonsense. I do believe we should accept pornography for what it is, rather than trying to sugarcoat it.
What do you guys and gals think?
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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 DieCommie
Ally
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 7,374
Loc: The Union
Last seen: 5 hours, 45 minutes
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Pornography is lose/lose.
And mustard ftw. Real mustard of course, not that neon yellow crap.
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Behold yon miserable creature. That Point is a Being like ourselves, but confined to the non-dimensional Gulf. He is himself his own World, his own Universe; of any other than himself he can form no conception; he knows not Length, nor Breadth, nor Height, for he has had no experience of them; he has no cognizance even of the number Two; nor has he a thought of Plurality; for he is himself his One and All, being really Nothing. Yet mark his perfect self-contentment, and hence learn his lesson, that to be self-contented is to be vile and ignorant, and that to aspire is better than to be blindly and impotently happy.
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johnm214
 
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: DieCommie]
#8367191 - 05/05/08 11:23 PM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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The problem here is that degrade is a loose term and people will equivocate inevitably.
I don't know really, I tend to think sexual desire in general degrades the person or class to whom its directed in some circumstances. So its hard for me to say that porn ipso facto degrades women cuz I think the degradation would be there anyways if your just dealing w/ a bunch of guys talking amongst themselves, or one thinking on his own. I find it hard to distinguish between the two.
I think an argument can be made that pornography degrades men, in that society views it as a primarily male product, and that it is shallow folks who consume it. Surely pronography degrades the women involved, but I don't know if you can say it denigrates women as a whole as much as it does men, though both are merely a product of the male psyche.
So its kinda like asking if drugs degrade a person. Kinda hard to focus scorn upon the tool to obtain the goal rather than the goal in and of itself, or those harboring the goal.
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learningtofly
Stranger
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 2,426
Last seen: 1 day, 13 hours
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: johnm214]
#8367440 - 05/06/08 12:28 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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First of all we must assume that no women are intrigued by pornography or the act of sex-for-money at all.
Honestly, I see pornography as the representation of capitalism. People are "whores" if you will, to the dominant class and engage in acts that of which they may not like in order to get by. Porno just shows it for what it really is.
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GnuBobo said:
You're a stupid hippie. That's my point.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: learningtofly]
#8367475 - 05/06/08 12:39 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
First of all we must assume that no women are intrigued by pornography or the act of sex-for-money at all.
why?
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,305
Loc: PNW
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Quote:
Degrade
1. To reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote.
2. To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace: a scandal that degraded the participants.
3. To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase.
4. To reduce in worth or value: degrade a currency.
5. To impair in physical structure or function.
I don't think that pornography degrades either men or women, though it does present a very narrow perspective on sexuality. It is arousing to watch other people having sex, and clinical studies have shown that both sexes are excited by graphic sexual imagery. (Yes, they did clinical studies, and yes, I watched a video OF the clinical studies. It was not very exciting, as everyone was hooked up to various arousal-measuring devices.  .)
IMO, when humans were all living in close proximity, we had many opportunities to watch others engaged in sex play and intercourse. This is how we learned to 'do' sex, and those who were inspired to have more sex after becoming aroused by watching went on to make more babies. Evolution, baby!! 
My teenaged son was initially very embarrassed to discuss his interest in pornography. He was shocked when I validated his attraction to it, and even more shocked when I admitted that I found it exciting, too. I described the clinical studies & my theory about voyeurism being hard-wired into human sexuality. I also told him that there was MORE to sex than the animalistic and kinky performances featured in pornography.
The main issue I have with people watching porn, and particularly with young men watching, is that they have no other frame of reference for the development of their sexuality. For a sexually-active adult, the occasional X-rated movie or jerk-mag is just part of a bigger scheme. They know that the imagery is a rarified slice of the broader spectrum of sexual expression, and they can appreciate it for what it is.
For an inexperienced, sexually-isolated young man, however, this imagery seems to be the WHOLE picture. The fact that it is novel and exciting, not to mention taboo, makes it all the more memorable and important. As most parents seem to want their children to STAY children, and be offered abstinence-only sex ed in the public schools, these young men are not offered any contrasting descriptions of what sexuality can be.
Ideally, and this is what I have offered my sons, parents would maintain a totally open dialogue about sex and sexuality throughout childhood and early adulthood. They would allow their kids to ask ANY question, and research the answer if they didn't know it themself. They would have a library of books on sexuality, and allow their kids age-appropriate access. They would offer acceptance and support during puberty, and deal with their hang-ups AWAY from their children (in counseling, if possible).
Within this framework, pornography would not make such a big impression, and could be enjoyed for the exaggerated and fantastical fiction that it is.
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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Chronic777
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 3,485
Loc: Unmoving Core
Last seen: 3 hours, 38 minutes
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8368302 - 05/06/08 10:25 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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I think the only thing it degrades it the sexual act itself, sex can be simply fun and thats very enjoyable, but tantra takes it way beyond fun, but we live in a society that generally shuns it instead of really teaching us about it.
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What is here?
Edited by Chronic777 (05/06/08 10:53 AM)
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thedudenj
Sra_Sephiroth0
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 9,006
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Chronic777]
#8368347 - 05/06/08 10:42 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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lol i know too many women that love their porno and would be mad if they didnt have it
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""You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,382
Loc: underbelly
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Pornography only degrades women if they choose to feel degraded by it.
Same for men. Everything has many aspects that can be positive or negative. This must be taken on a case by case basis IMO.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
embrace death in all the ways it comes no matter how soft or hard. cruel ,tragic,weak,light, gentle, ect how ever. thats life
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thedudenj
Sra_Sephiroth0
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 9,006
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Icelander]
#8368500 - 05/06/08 11:29 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Pornography only degrades women if they choose to feel degraded by it.
Same for men. Everything has many aspects that can be positive or negative. This must be taken on a case by case basis IMO.
yeah pretty much lifes alot like that with alot of things
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""You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,382
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8368502 - 05/06/08 11:30 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Degrade
1. To reduce in grade, rank, or status; demote.
2. To lower in dignity; dishonor or disgrace: a scandal that degraded the participants.
3. To lower in moral or intellectual character; debase.
4. To reduce in worth or value: degrade a currency.
5. To impair in physical structure or function.
I don't think that pornography degrades either men or women, though it does present a very narrow perspective on sexuality. It is arousing to watch other people having sex, and clinical studies have shown that both sexes are excited by graphic sexual imagery. (Yes, they did clinical studies, and yes, I watched a video OF the clinical studies. It was not very exciting, as everyone was hooked up to various arousal-measuring devices. .)
IMO, when humans were all living in close proximity, we had many opportunities to watch others engaged in sex play and intercourse. This is how we learned to 'do' sex, and those who were inspired to have more sex after becoming aroused by watching went on to make more babies. Evolution, baby!!
My teenaged son was initially very embarrassed to discuss his interest in pornography. He was shocked when I validated his attraction to it, and even more shocked when I admitted that I found it exciting, too. I described the clinical studies & my theory about voyeurism being hard-wired into human sexuality. I also told him that there was MORE to sex than the animalistic and kinky performances featured in pornography.
The main issue I have with people watching porn, and particularly with young men watching, is that they have no other frame of reference for the development of their sexuality. For a sexually-active adult, the occasional X-rated movie or jerk-mag is just part of a bigger scheme. They know that the imagery is a rarified slice of the broader spectrum of sexual expression, and they can appreciate it for what it is.
For an inexperienced, sexually-isolated young man, however, this imagery seems to be the WHOLE picture. The fact that it is novel and exciting, not to mention taboo, makes it all the more memorable and important. As most parents seem to want their children to STAY children, and be offered abstinence-only sex ed in the public schools, these young men are not offered any contrasting descriptions of what sexuality can be.
Ideally, and this is what I have offered my sons, parents would maintain a totally open dialogue about sex and sexuality throughout childhood and early adulthood. They would allow their kids to ask ANY question, and research the answer if they didn't know it themself. They would have a library of books on sexuality, and allow their kids age-appropriate access. They would offer acceptance and support during puberty, and deal with their hang-ups AWAY from their children (in counseling, if possible).
Within this framework, pornography would not make such a big impression, and could be enjoyed for the exaggerated and fantastical fiction that it is.
Great post V.
--------------------
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
embrace death in all the ways it comes no matter how soft or hard. cruel ,tragic,weak,light, gentle, ect how ever. thats life
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truekimbo2
total being glossolalia
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 4,854
Loc: ny
Last seen: 7 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Chronic777]
#8368511 - 05/06/08 11:32 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
I think the only thing it degrades it the sexual act itself, sex can be simply fun and thats very enjoyable, but tantra takes it way beyond fun, but we live in a society that generally shuns it instead of really teaching us about it.
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I'm trapped with a mad man. look at him, staring into me, filling my mind with paranoid thoughts
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,399
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8368785 - 05/06/08 01:13 PM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
I don't think that pornography degrades either men or women
Why not?
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,399
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Icelander]
#8368795 - 05/06/08 01:15 PM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Pornography only degrades women if they choose to feel degraded by it.
I can't think a woman is being degraded unless she also thinks she is being degraded too?
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,399
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: learningtofly]
#8368808 - 05/06/08 01:19 PM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Honestly, I see pornography as the representation of capitalism. People are "whores" if you will, to the dominant class and engage in acts that of which they may not like in order to get by.
I've heard this a lot from Marxists, Feminists, and Marxist-Feminists. Although I'm not a Marxist, this does seem like a valid criticism.
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 13,662
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
Last seen: 19 minutes, 1 second
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Pornography only degrades women if they choose to feel degraded by it.
I can't think a woman is being degraded unless she also thinks she is being degraded too?
You can think whatever you want. To view someone else as being without dignity is a projection on your part; their indignity is something you think, not something you witness.
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-oOo-
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. -- `Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' -- Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
-oOo-
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 10,305
Loc: PNW
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
I don't think that pornography degrades either men or women
Why not?
To paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt, no one can degrade you without your permission. The fact that pornography exists is neutral, it is only our perceptions which assign negative or positive attributes to this particular mode of sexual expression. Who has done the degrading?
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No man is free who is not master of himself.
~Epictetus.
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recycledsoul
Stranger
Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 54
Last seen: 4 months, 11 days
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Sex is the original psychadelic expereince, egoloss and timelessness. society has turned into something so horrible.
pornograhpy is a result of preists and continued by corporate energy. really if you examine the roots of the problem you will find it is turning the life energy- beautiful sacred loving act into a sin. we are all sin then? so we are repressed, then subject to intense ruling of passion. then feel guilty - we fight ourselves no? really if you see the actors faces they are very very ugly, the women the men. it is a very violent dominating act that is occuring too. totally fake. it is the opposite of the pyshcadelic experience. so much of the world is corrupted by pornograhpy when sex is avaibable to everyone. the act of porn was not the degrading act for these people, but just a continuation of things that occured earlier in their life- molestation, violence, unloving parents, bad drugs... etc.. you will find most of the people are on some sort of drug, most cocaine.
because porn stimulates our nervous system so much it is very addictive. we dont like porn itself, we like the sensation it creates in us. we only like this because we live in such a repressed society that has turned sex into something dirty. when really its something beautiful to expereience the person you love through. to transcend the duality of the entier universe through this sacred act. it is the original psychadelic experience- time loss and ego loss.
yes we are very confused because we think we want one thing but what we really want is something else. and it is up to us to figure this out. and pyshadelics make give you a little insight at first, but a so much more immense insigt comes through meditation.
we are so obsessed with sex, but this is something given to us from corporations to expoit us, from preists who repressed us. really are you living your own life or just reacting your the demands of your mind - which you have inherited from society, which is not you- which keeps you miserable.
really we are searching for love, absoloute love and because our mother, our father does not even give us a good example we search in the wrong places.
sex is like everything else. you can do it Wholely, the right way whihc will benefit you and others or you can do it the confused way which mostly causes negativities in you, but also others.
in meditaiton there are sensations that are so much more incredible than any orgasm. Much more. think of everything that you expereince in your life. it is not the object you enjoy, but the sensation generated within you which you expereince. this is not the goal of meditation, but is one side effect. really sex then is nothing compared to what you can do, you wont even want sex anymore
really some great books if you are intrested in understanding sex more or end your use of pornograhpy are:
Taoists secrets of love:: Mantak Chia
From sex to superconsciousness:: Osho
Book of secrets(tantric bible):: Osho
recourses
http://www.tantra.org/sacrorgs.html
technique for achieving multiple orgasms(but incorect philosohpy): http://vipervr.com/docs/mlan.pdf
tantra
http://www.shivashakti.com/kular.htm
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=matsyendranath
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vignana+bhairava
good luck brothers and sisters
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Listen to what the universe wants you to do, be happy
listen to what the mind wants you to do, be miserable
just be Here. Reality as it is, dont change it as you would like it to be, just observe, no repression, no expression
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,399
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Re: Does Pornography Degrade Women [Re: Veritas]
#8368933 - 05/06/08 01:57 PM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
I don't think that pornography degrades either men or women
Why not?
To paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt, no one can degrade you without your permission. The fact that pornography exists is neutral, it is only our perceptions which assign negative or positive attributes to this particular mode of sexual expression. Who has done the degrading?
I disagree. Being treated merely as the means to another person's sexual pleasure is inherently degrading. The females in pornography are clearly submissive to the males and, furthermore, serve no purpose other than to have dicks stuck in them. By definition, this is degrading.
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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AnarchoTrip
Young Blood
Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 583
Last seen: 14 hours, 45 minutes
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What about fendom, gay, lesbian, transexual, or cross-dressing pornography?
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YIPPIE!
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