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 Notendo
Stranger
Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 56
Last seen: 2 months, 19 days
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 Science's failure to heal
#8073067 - 02/26/08 03:24 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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Ok, after a quick google search for dangerous pharmaceutical drugs, I found this:
Fosamax is manufactured by Merck & Co. and was prescribed to increase bone density. Since 2001, more than 2,400 patients taking this type of medication have report cases of osteonecrosis (deterioration of the jaw bone causing severe infection, swelling and loss of teeth).
There are many more high-profile cases than the above, but I just wanted to have a quick exhibit.
Sometimes an herbal medicine will pop up and be shown to be ineffective at treating what its proponents claim. Other times the argument against the herb in question is simply "oh, it hasn't been scientifically proven to be effective."
But you know, there are a lot of drugs that are scientifically studied, that go through many trials, that after being approved and distributed are shown to be actually quite dangerous and ineffective. The drug I quoted about above was scientifically "proven" to increase bone density but wound up doing the opposite! If that's not ineffective medicine I don't know what is.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
  
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 7,249
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 hours, 18 minutes
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: Notendo]
#8073082 - 02/26/08 03:26 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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And how's that "science's" failure to heal? 
Perhaps you mean it is the failure of the people who apply it. 
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This party is old and uninviting
Participants all in black and white
You enter in fullblown technicolor
Nothing is the same after tonight 
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ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 742
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: Notendo]
#8073104 - 02/26/08 03:29 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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Sometimes thousands of years of trial and error (alternative meds) triumphs over science. But then again these drug companies aren't doing the studies in the name of science or public health. I think they might have other motives...*cough money*
 That's for you big pharm!
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ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
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 OrgoneConclusion
Oh, bee hive!
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 7,973
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: Notendo]
#8073115 - 02/26/08 03:33 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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Should we rely merely on anecdote?
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What is the sound of one jaw snapping?
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JRayV
guy on the couch
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 522
Loc: Kentucky
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: MushroomTrip]
#8073129 - 02/26/08 03:38 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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This is a danger that must be understood when taking a drug that is new to the market.
A misconception that many people have is that drugs like this are supposed to "heal". Most drugs are just tools to help people live better with their conditions.
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ChiefGreenLeaf
Cherriest of All Humans
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 742
Loc: Pineal Gland
Last seen: 4 days, 17 hours
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Should we rely merely on anecdote?
No, it should be a combination of both. Anecdotal evidence will tell us what needs further investigation.
Example, when I see a "scientific report" that shrooms and acid make anyone who eats them an incurable lunatic I just look at the Mexican natives who have been eating them for hundreds, if not thousands of years. LSD has only been around for a couple of decades. Although I have heard experiences of people trying it and having no adverse effects, it is still a young drug. Th lack of anecdotal evidence calls for the deficit to be made up in scientific.
haha i just realized that you posted that pic along with your comment. disregard my overly serious tone.
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ABSENCE OF EVIDNCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"the fact has not created in me
a sense of obligation."
Edited by ChiefGreenLeaf (02/26/08 03:47 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Oh, bee hive!
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 7,973
Loc: In the woods
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Echinacea has been reported to have helped shorten colds. Recent testing has shown no effect whatsoever.
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What is the sound of one jaw snapping?
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,399
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: Notendo]
#8073446 - 02/26/08 05:00 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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What does this have to do with science?
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,395
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: Notendo]
#8073518 - 02/26/08 05:16 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Notendo said:
Ok, after a quick google search for dangerous pharmaceutical drugs, I found this:
Fosamax is manufactured by Merck & Co. and was prescribed to increase bone density. Since 2001, more than 2,400 patients taking this type of medication have report cases of osteonecrosis (deterioration of the jaw bone causing severe infection, swelling and loss of teeth).
There are many more high-profile cases than the above, but I just wanted to have a quick exhibit.
Sometimes an herbal medicine will pop up and be shown to be ineffective at treating what its proponents claim. Other times the argument against the herb in question is simply "oh, it hasn't been scientifically proven to be effective."
But you know, there are a lot of drugs that are scientifically studied, that go through many trials, that after being approved and distributed are shown to be actually quite dangerous and ineffective. The drug I quoted about above was scientifically "proven" to increase bone density but wound up doing the opposite! If that's not ineffective medicine I don't know what is.
The problem is IMO that the pharmisutical industry is motivated by greed. The hypocratic oath has evolved into the hypocritic oath.
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
embrace death in all the ways it comes no matter how soft or hard. cruel ,tragic,weak,light, gentle, ect how ever. thats life
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OrgoneConclusion
Oh, bee hive!
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 7,973
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: Icelander]
#8073658 - 02/26/08 05:48 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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I hate science! 
Now I shall transmit the same message without using technology:
*crickets chirping*
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What is the sound of one jaw snapping?
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 2,497
Last seen: 21 hours, 33 minutes
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thousands of years of trial and error
That is science with patience.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 23,395
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I hate science!
Now I shall transmit the same message without using technology:
*crickets chirping*
What does your post have to do with my post?
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What the thinker thinks, the prover proves. R.A.W.
I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions. R.A.W.
embrace death in all the ways it comes no matter how soft or hard. cruel ,tragic,weak,light, gentle, ect how ever. thats life
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OrgoneConclusion
Oh, bee hive!
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 7,973
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: Icelander]
#8074073 - 02/26/08 07:18 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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.
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What is the sound of one jaw snapping?
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ponetony
Mr. BananaGrabber
Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 128
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
Last seen: 2 months, 6 days
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I think tehe real problem is not with science but with the drug companies who perform these tests. the nature of science is to continue one testing your hypothesis to prove it wrong until you are certain it is either wrong or right, the nature is to question always. these companies do not do this in many cases to the extent they should because that wastes them money, which is stupid because then people develop crazy ass things like teeth rotting necrosis or whatever it is called
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Word to your moms I came to drop bombs I gots more rhymes than the bibles got psalms
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deranger
disciple of plant
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 3,227
Loc: time
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: Notendo]
#8074295 - 02/26/08 07:56 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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People like money.
Presently, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has pending criminal charges against Jason Vale in the Federal Courts in the Eastern District of New York for promoting apricot seeds as what has proved to be major life saving help in cancer patients. Jason had been terminal with the ASKINS tumor and renal cell carcinoma of which he was completely healed through prayer and apricot seeds. Click here for his personal story along with the cat scans of the shrinking tumor. Once he told others of how he achieved healing and supplied help, the FDA began to put him in the spotlight. They raided his home and took supplies of apricot seeds and it's extract. The charges were brought after Jason was strong armed into signing a Consent Decree of Permanent Injunction in which he agreed to refrain from selling apricot seeds if in violation of FDA code. Jason did cease from selling the apricot seeds, but continued to share his own story (to those who called him) of how he survived cancer through eating seeds a change of diet and more. Literally thousands of people have achieved wellness through Jason's help. Click here to read Jason's journal which includes true stories of lives that have been changed for the better.
Criminal charges for selling apricot seeds? People wake up.
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new progressive dubstep mix 
"you're in a boat, you choose the color of the boat
the boat's on the ocean
the ocean represents your spirit, your emotions, and your life
and the life that you're living is the boat, you're in the boat
you have an anchor, that you don't know you have, it's an invisible anchor
when you see it, that's when you'll be seen"
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 9,909
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: deranger]
#8075084 - 02/26/08 10:29 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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No, read you own story again.
He has criminal charges pending for selling a cure for cancer, not for selling apricot seeds.
And if you start selling snake oil and claim it cures penile erectile disfunction, you should face criminal charges too. Not for the snake oil, but for the medical claim.
People should be allowed to buy whatever they want. But duping them with unsubstantiated medical claims should be a crime. That's why we require medical practitioners to be licensed.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of three Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: Diploid]
#8075205 - 02/26/08 10:52 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
No, read you own story again.
He has criminal charges pending for selling a cure for cancer, not for selling apricot seeds.
And if you start selling snake oil and claim it cures penile erectile disfunction, you should face criminal charges too. Not for the snake oil, but for the medical claim.
People should be allowed to buy whatever they want. But duping them with unsubstantiated medical claims should be a crime. That's why we require medical practitioners to be licensed.
amen
although I think the licensing of medical practitioners is overboard.
Just like with products, the person shouldn't be able to lie about their competency or the risk of their procedures.
If people want to be operated on by the dogcatcher, that's their business.
If people want to buy crack cuz they think it will help their neurosis, that's fine too.
But neither should be able to claim benefits or credentials they can't back up.
and finally, not directed at diploid....
there is nothing wrong with wanting money to sell a product. The problem is the artificial government controls on the market, pidgeonholing the market for those who have the resources to get approval for their potions.
If you want to sell apricot seeds, fine. If you want to show success against cancer, fine. But pay for it yourself.
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deranger
disciple of plant
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 3,227
Loc: time
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: Diploid]
#8075238 - 02/26/08 10:58 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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OK, but something still doesn't click...
Why did the FDA try to pursuade people into thinking these seeds contain a "toxic chemical" that is less toxic than sugar and 20 times less toxic than aspirin?
Griffin tells us that laboratory forms of B17 (amygdalin, Laetrile) have been described as non-toxic in pharmacology books for over one hundred years. He compares this to common aspirin, which is "twenty times more toxic than the equivalent amount of Laetrile. The toxicity of aspirin is cumulative and can build up for days or even months. The chemical action of B17, however, is completed usually within a few hours leaving behind absolutely no build-up"
"Examples of dishonesty and corruption in the field of drug research; a close look at the first major study which declared Laetrile (vitamin B17) ‘of no value;’ proof that the study was fraudulent; the FDA’s ruling against the use of Laetrile because it had not been tested; and the refusal then to allow anyone (except its opponents) to test it" (p. 21).
http://www.vitaminb17.org/wwc_part1.htm
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new progressive dubstep mix
"you're in a boat, you choose the color of the boat
the boat's on the ocean
the ocean represents your spirit, your emotions, and your life
and the life that you're living is the boat, you're in the boat
you have an anchor, that you don't know you have, it's an invisible anchor
when you see it, that's when you'll be seen"
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MushmanTheManic
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,399
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: deranger]
#8075444 - 02/26/08 11:57 PM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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Because it contains cyanide?
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Concerned Citizens United Against Drugs and Terrorism
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 6,918
Loc: Americas
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Re: Science's failure to heal [Re: deranger]
#8075461 - 02/27/08 12:01 AM (8 months, 21 days ago) |
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cuz things that produce cyanide are toxic?
toxicity is in the dose... yeah, asprin and everything else is toxic, so what?
and is their some support for the thesis that this compound was identified as non-toxic in books for 100 years?
Here's some folks who say different.
Quote:
One hundred seventy-eight patients with cancer were treated with amygdalin (Laetrile) plus a "metabolic therapy" program consisting of diet, enzymes, and vitamins...
The pharmaceutical preparations of amygdalin, the dosage, and the schedule were representative of past and present Laetrile practice...
The hazards of amygdalin therapy were evidenced in several patients by symptoms of cyanide toxicity or by blood cyanide levels approaching the lethal range. Patients exposed to this agent should be instructed about the danger of cyanide poisoning, and their blood cyanide levels should be carefully monitored. Amygdalin (Laetrile) is a toxic drug that is not effective as a cancer treatment.
N Engl J Med. 1982 Jan 28;306(4):201-6.
here's folks who say oral amygdalin doesn't cause signifigant problems in a given dose, but does raise cyanide levels.
Quote:
A pharmacologic and toxicological study of amygdalin
C. G. Moertel, M. M. Ames, J. S. Kovach, T. P. Moyer, J. R. Rubin and J. H. Tinker
Six patients with advanced cancer were treated with amygdalin (laetrile) at dosages similar to those employed by laetrile practitioners. Amygdalin given intravenously at 4.5 g/sq m/day was largely excreted unchanged in the urine and produced no clinical or laboratory evidence of toxic reaction. Amygdalin given orally at 0.5 g three times daily produced significant blood cyanide levels to 2.1 microgram/mL. No clinical or laboratory evidence of toxic reaction was seen in the six patients taking oral amygdalin at this dosage. One patient, however, challenged with a large intake of raw almonds, had transient symptoms of cyanide toxic reaction with escalating blood cyanide levels. This small study indicates that amygdalin in the doses employed produces few clinical side effects. A definite hazard of cyanide toxic reaction must be assumed, however, and possible long-term side effects remain unknown.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/245/6/591
FYI, I found a source that said
Quote:
With this method, mild toxicity is observed at concentrations of 0.5-1.0 mcg/mL. Concentrations of 2.5 mcg/mL and higher are associated with coma, seizures, and death.
http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic909.htm
The above study produced levels at 2.1 mcg/ml, well above the .5-1 mcg/ml threshold mentioned above, yet showed no "signifigant effects" so perhaps these levels aren't so tied down? Or maybe my source is bullshit.
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