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 Visionary Tools
Kiffah
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 2,933
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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 Is nothing impossible?
#8408873 - 05/16/08 10:27 AM (6 months, 4 days ago) |
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This question makes me uneasy. But that there's anything at all is amazing. Why is there anything?
I want to make this as simple as possible, otherwise I get confused by it.
One day, or non day, as day's didn't exist, there was nothing. Nothing didn't like it, which was the first step in having something, then, universes.
Does that mean there was no time in the past where there was nothing?
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In times of universal deceit, the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
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 deimya
tofu with monocle
Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 529
Loc: ausländer.ch
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If there was nothing, there certainly was no causality and no time indeed. It seems therefore meaningless, or paradoxical, or at least wrong, to say there was nothing and then something. So yeah, from my everyday experience of something, I would say that "nothing" is no more possible, we screwed it up big time 
But this is in the context of a given exterior, objective world. Subjectively, human nothingness is the no-experience like before you are born, after you die, or maybe during a dreamless sleep, in which case there's an element of memory. But again this is paradoxical as there's no subjectivity in these moments.
Edited by deimya (05/16/08 12:34 PM)
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(o))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 9,273
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in ...
Last seen: 7 days, 5 hours
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No, nothing is indeed possible. 
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JoseLibrado
return
Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 3 months, 23 days
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: Gomp]
#8415244 - 05/18/08 12:55 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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No-thing or Lack of a thing is still a thing, when you believe that since you can speak of a lack of a thing, or NO-thing, there must be a thing there which you point towards and question, such as is 'look, what is this thing, which people call no-thing' and how does it relate to experince?
Maybe everything we know is in the imagination. But can you imagine, that you imaginate evertyhing?
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The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.
And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.
Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.
Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
One day, or non day, as day's didn't exist, there was nothing. Nothing didn't like it, which was the first step in having something, then, universes.
Does that mean there was no time in the past where there was nothing?
Nothing, by definition, cannot exist. To say 'there was nothing' is to attribute being to nothingness (which has no being).
There was no time in the past when there 'was' nothingness. Anytime there was time, there was at least space. There couldn't have been a 'before' time, as this would attribute temporal existence to something outside of time.
One thing we must consider is that humans experience time in a way the humans are capable of experiencing it: temporally (past, present, and future). This is not to say we experience the true nature of time.
Just my two cents. If you're interested in this subject, I suggest "Being and Time" by Martin Heidegger. It's a tough read, and lengthy, but worth it.
Perhaps reading about Kant's Categories of the Understanding would be a good lead-in to Heidegger.
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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burgatory
sssssssssssssshit
Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 328
Last seen: 14 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: fubuvsfitch]
#8415421 - 05/18/08 02:50 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Remember you're just a simple, limited creature in an ecosystem. Your left-brain's 'intellectualizing' is limited in scope, and is a kind of symptom of your evolutionary development - it's not the language of nature. So, you might be asking completely meaningless questions, without realising you're just an organism pulsing away in your brain somewhere.
I think ANYTHING is possible, because that's the nature of your mind - God's mind - it creates what it pleases. However, it has a path set for this dimension at least where there is a system going on with fixed notions. This doesn't mean your organism is limited to this dimension - it seems to have the power to create its own in dreams, or to travel.
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we must strive against all ill-formed resistance to attain the chalice of a higher spiritual awakening
There's nothing there.
"Dreams: at the bottom of them lies the merciless onslaught of reality."
Edited by burgatory (05/18/08 02:52 AM)
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burgatory
sssssssssssssshit
Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 328
Last seen: 14 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: burgatory]
#8415432 - 05/18/08 03:01 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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What scares me a little is that when I imagine myself as less than I am, muscles in my head tense up against the skull. Is this the muscles attempting to crush the brain, to make me 'less'?
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we must strive against all ill-formed resistance to attain the chalice of a higher spiritual awakening
There's nothing there.
"Dreams: at the bottom of them lies the merciless onslaught of reality."
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: burgatory]
#8415434 - 05/18/08 03:02 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
burgatory said:
Remember you're just a simple, limited creature in an ecosystem. Your left-brain's 'intellectualizing' is limited in scope, and is a kind of symptom of your evolutionary development - it's not the language of nature. So, you might be asking completely meaningless questions, without realising you're just an organism pulsing away in your brain somewhere.
I think ANYTHING is possible, because that's the nature of your mind - God's mind - it creates what it pleases. However, it has a path set for this dimension at least where there is a system going on with fixed notions. This doesn't mean your organism is limited to this dimension - it seems to have the power to create its own in dreams, or to travel.
Yes, anyTHING is possible. But nothing is not a thing, and in fact by definition, to say nothing can exist is absurd. It's like saying a man is monetarily the richest and poorest in the world at the same time. We only have a loose understanding of nothingness, we have never experienced true nothingness, as nothingness is impossible to experience. We have an idea of nothingess as being something, which is a flawed assumption derived from our inability to contemplate that which is not a thing. Even saying 'that which IS not a thing' is an erroroneous way to speak of nothingness. These are facts, by definition, regardless of my subjectivity.
In fact, you seem to be arguing against yourself here, saying that I cannot speak beyond my subjectivity as a limited creature (which I am not doing), while you yourself are guilty of begging the question in presupposing things about the objective nature of reality and god. I realize that my knowledge set is limited, which is the point you seem to be making in the first paragraph. You contradict yourself in the second paragraph by making assumptions beyond your knowledge set.
Cheers.
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: fubuvsfitch]
#8415447 - 05/18/08 03:12 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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If you will:
All entities in existence are 'things'.
'Nothing' is not a thing.
'Nothing' can not exist.
(It's even an error to speak of 'nothing' as such: Nothing is that which does not exist. For 'is' is a word that implies being, being implies existence, to imply that nothing exists is absurd.)
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When we think of 'nothing', we are not truly thinking of nothing. We are thinking of a concept that cannot be known, only roughly approximated. Nothing doesn't even exist as a concept in our mind, for the concept in our mind is flawed and not truly representative of nothing in-and-of-itself. If one disagrees, describe 'nothing' to me in non-negative terms.
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
Edited by fubuvsfitch (05/18/08 03:18 AM)
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: burgatory]
#8415464 - 05/18/08 03:32 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
burgatory said:
What scares me a little is that when I imagine myself as less than I am, muscles in my head tense up against the skull. Is this the muscles attempting to crush the brain, to make me 'less'?
Holy cow dude I hope not! Maybe it's just stress.
What exactly do you mean by 'less than I am'?
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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Oweyervishice
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 1,245
Last seen: 18 hours, 37 minutes
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: burgatory]
#8415472 - 05/18/08 03:43 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
burgatory said:
Remember you're just a simple, limited creature in an ecosystem. Your left-brain's 'intellectualizing' is limited in scope, and is a kind of symptom of your evolutionary development - it's not the language of nature. So, you might be asking completely meaningless questions, without realising you're just an organism pulsing away in your brain somewhere.
It may not be THE language of nature (math?), but your mind is one expression of the natural world. As for meaningless questions...do we really need to get into "what is meaning" again? 
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Quote:
Oweyervishice said:
It may not be THE language of nature (math?), but your mind is one expression of the natural world. As for meaningless questions...do we really need to get into "what is meaning" again?
Excellent input.
My two cents: nature has many languages (methods of communication/expression) i.e. DNA, time, spatiality, etc, that can be described mathematically. The way our mind works is a natural communication method, so it too is a language of nature. I do not however agree that math might be 'the' language of nature.
There are specific situations in which mathematics fails to describe nature, though. (IE when the laws of physics fail).
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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burgatory
sssssssssssssshit
Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 328
Last seen: 14 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: fubuvsfitch]
#8417435 - 05/18/08 05:57 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
fubuvsfitch said:
Quote:
burgatory said:
What scares me a little is that when I imagine myself as less than I am, muscles in my head tense up against the skull. Is this the muscles attempting to crush the brain, to make me 'less'?
Holy cow dude I hope not! Maybe it's just stress.
What exactly do you mean by 'less than I am'?
I guess I mean by thinking destructive thoughts. I think as we do have destructive thoughts, like thoughts of anger, jealously, rage and hatred, and even superiority, we destroy our organism by forcing some need on to it, when it already has everything it ever needs. You actually tense your muscles (causing long-term muscular tension) and cause flight-fight responses with this kind of thinking, wearing away at yourself. That little reflection about the brain was a little humored - I don't really think that is happening but it is an interesting thought; those muscles in your forehead are the closest voluntary group to your brain. Don't think it over too much!
I appreciate the philosophical arguments for/against what I'm saying, but I'm being a bit flimsy with something that is already flimsy - language, but I feel I'm being clear enough to communicate what I think. So it might seem totally wrong in one context, and that's fine.
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we must strive against all ill-formed resistance to attain the chalice of a higher spiritual awakening
There's nothing there.
"Dreams: at the bottom of them lies the merciless onslaught of reality."
Edited by burgatory (05/18/08 06:00 PM)
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: burgatory]
#8417476 - 05/18/08 06:10 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Interesting. Yeah that's one of the big obstacles I had to overcome in my life, not giving in to the fear.
I just don't entertain those thoughts too long at all. As soon as I feel them creeping in, I just think 'well fuck it, there's nothing I can do about it, shouldn't worry myself then.'
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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xFrockx
Fucking Hippie
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1,274
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 7 minutes
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: burgatory]
#8417486 - 05/18/08 06:13 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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If nothing was impossible, then it would not be possible that something was impossible. So because it would be impossible that something was impossible, it could not be true that nothing was impossible.
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I want to tell you a story,
About a little man,
If I can,
A gnome named Grimble Grumble,
And little gnomes stay in their homes,
Eating, sleeping, Drinking their wine
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Visionary Tools
Kiffah
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 2,933
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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I two want to rub my two hundreths of a larger monetary unit together, after further thought and reading other's understanding, nothing is a concept, like infinity. Nothing can exist without a reference to it, and if there's a reference, then nothing can't exist.
I believe in the big bang. Not because I understand all the physics behind it, but because it feels plausible. I reckon a god/universe made our universe. It started off as a seed, that grew, and gave birth to stars, that in turn some gave birth to planets (if you'll accept the analogy that a star's gravity allows planets to form is giving birth) which gave birth to life, which in turn starts with a seed.
But, then what? Does this mean time is cyclicial, with no beginning because it's all in a loop? Was there a beginning? Did all universes/gods originate from one place? I know these questions may be impossible to answer, but they keep dogging me on. Not knowing if things had a beginning makes me uneasy.
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In times of universal deceit, the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: xFrockx]
#8417663 - 05/18/08 06:56 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
If nothing was impossible, then it would not be possible that something was impossible. So because it would be impossible that something was impossible, it could not be true that nothing was impossible.
Your premises do not adequately support your conclusion; there is an error in your logic.
The existence of Nothing is in fact impossible. This actually necessitates that everything in existence is Something. In other words, it IS impossible that Existence is impossible. Nothing is not something.
I believe perhaps when you are saying 'something' you might be referring to specific instances or entities eg 'pink unicorns'. I may be mistaken, but if I am correct, there is another flaw in your logic. The fact that some Thing is impossible speaks nothing to Nothing in-and-of-itself, as opposed to existence. This thread is addressing the question of Nothingness vs Existence, not the impossibilities of specific things.
I agree that some specific Things may be impossible. But this has nothing to do with Nothingness. Just because a specific Thing is impossible, this doesn't mean that Nothingness is possible.
Again, I implore one who believes that nothing can exist to explain what nothing is in non-negative, non-referential terms. Nothing is a loose concept of non-existence, which we can have no understanding of.
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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xFrockx
Fucking Hippie
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1,274
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 7 minutes
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: fubuvsfitch]
#8417712 - 05/18/08 07:04 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Right, I read what you said above, I was sortof trying to leave that aside and still show that its illogical.
Edit: By the way, you seem to be one of the few people who post here that have any philosophical background. I'm curious, what sort of education do you have in philosophy?
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I want to tell you a story,
About a little man,
If I can,
A gnome named Grimble Grumble,
And little gnomes stay in their homes,
Eating, sleeping, Drinking their wine
Edited by xFrockx (05/18/08 07:06 PM)
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fubuvsfitch
Philosopher King
Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 117
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: xFrockx]
#8417806 - 05/18/08 07:32 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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I have a BA in Philosophy from Texas A & M University and I enjoy reading and studying in my off time.
I really enjoy this forum in the short time I've been here. Everyone seems, well, similar to me. Generally nice, open people.
The one thing that sucks about forums (and language in general) is that when we converse, we can never know EXACTLY what the other is trying to say. I wasn't quite sure what you meant up there, but hey at least we can try lol
One of the key benefits of my knowledge of most philosophical writers and topics is that I can express myself adequatley. I remeber when I first got into the field, I had some really interesting thoughts that weren't really fleshed out. Then when I would read something, it was like, 'Man, that's what I've been trying to say' or 'ahhh... I knew that all along but couldn't put it to words.'
To this day, I still get that feeling sometimes.
Ive noticed alot of really interesting ideas here.
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As below so above and beyond I imagine...
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xFrockx
Fucking Hippie
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1,274
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 7 minutes
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Re: Is nothing impossible? [Re: fubuvsfitch]
#8417904 - 05/18/08 08:01 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Yeah, I know what you mean about that feeling. I think its amazing to read the things that have shaped how people perceive the world. I like to think I could have came up with some of the concepts that Hume, Popper, and other great philosophers have, but I think that in all likelihood I have the same ideas because they are a part of how people now think. Philosophy is good stuff.
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I want to tell you a story,
About a little man,
If I can,
A gnome named Grimble Grumble,
And little gnomes stay in their homes,
Eating, sleeping, Drinking their wine
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