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Panaeolus cyanescens FAQ

This Panaeolus cyanescens FAQ has been compiled from online posts found both at the Shroomery and around the web.



This Panaeolus cyanescens FAQ has been compiled from online posts found both at the Shroomery and around the web.

 

What are some teks I can use to grow Panaeolus cyanescens?

Tek 1:

This is extremely crude, but I hear it works.
Prepare a spore syringe using the prints.
Prepare PF Tek type jars, it is not necessary to use as much substrate as you usually would. Inoculate the jars, using plenty of spore solution.
Grow the jars out somewhere warm. Mid 90's seems to work fine.
Wait until they are fully colonized and give them a couple more days.
Get yourself some fresh cow or horse manure (a dried out cow patty worked fine) mix with a little vermiculite and water to get the proper moisture. You want about 2 cups of shit cake. Nuke it in the microwave, or pressure cooker.
Put some wet perlite in the bottom of a plastic container, shoe box size works great. Crumble the shit and a colonized cake together over the perlite. This should be covered, placed somewhere dark and warm until it is colonized, about 6 days.
Case with a thin layer of properly moistened peat moss/calcium carbonate mix. Definitely less than 1/2" thick. Give it a couple of days then introduce light from a florescent or window light. Give it fresh air, but keep the humidity high. Lower the temperature a little if you can. Expect a couple of large flushes which start in less than two weeks, and are about 3 days apart.

by ambrose

Tek 2:

Germinate spores on Nutrient Agar, under as sterile an environment as possible. Transfer to fresh plates. Take a good pure plate and directly inoculate into Substrate mentioned before, in Jars. Wait 5- 14 days depending on quantity of inoculate. shake jars, and lay out in trays. Case with a very thin layer of casing soil. Cover for 24-48 hours. Remove cover and place in grow box(whatever you use to fruit in). Pins visible at 5 days from casing. Buttons at day 7, mature fruit at day10-17 depending on grow box environment.
A high evaporation rate, while maintaining moisture content of casing is all that is necessary.
I would say they are easier then most cubensis strains. Not all cubensis strains though. The manure based substrate does not contaminate easily, until you have gotten allot of flushes. Rye grain substrates contaminate easier, and result in small shrooms.
I found the mycelium to be quit resistant to contaminants, and very aggressive. It just LOOKS weak. It is a colony of fine threads, wispy. Cubensis just happens to be ROPY, and thick. So comparing the two by appearance would suggest weak mycelium for the Cops. They are not weak!!!!
When growing any shroom on an off-substrate, the mycelium will be less then ideal. I have no air pumps, no heating element, nothing high tek. If you saw the set up, you would think I was pulling your leg.
My indoor environment, with the AC on always remains between 74- 84 F approx. I use shallow casings, so internal temps within the substrate are never extreme. I did find the Cops. like slightly lower vegetative temps. but not LOW. The range of temps in my home, have grown mexicana, tampanensis, cubensis, and the Cops. Any subtropical shroom will produce in a relatively broad range of temps.
Cubensis, and Pans./Cops., mexicana, tampanensis, and all the other subtropicals, require no COLD SHOCKING. They really don't require any kind of major temperature change. I think the internal temperature change from Jar, to casing is sufficient. Maintaining a constant temperature of 80 F throughout the grow cycle: germination, vegetative, and fruiting. You still get fruits.
Manipulating temperature at the various stages of growth for subtropical shrooms, acts as an optimizer, it is not a necessity. You final product will happen quicker.
With the Cop.s, I don't think a day or two faster is worth the effort. From Spore to Spore in six weeks MAX.
pure cultures in two weeks.
pure spawn two weeks later, MAX.
Pins in five days from casing.
Mature sporulating caps in 10 days from pins, MAX.
Usually much faster. The first flush takes the longest, because the mycelium is so young. Once the mycelium reaches that peak, it happens much faster.
Cultures run plates in 3-5 days.
2 cups substrate colonized in 3-7 days.
Pins at 5 days from casing.
Mushrooms at 10-12 days from casing.
At optimum temps, and environmental conditions, with peak mycelium in culture, every 16-24 days. This in a very low tek indoor setup. Times are approximated!!! The stuff is fast.
Outdoors in a rubbermaid with perlite humidification, on my back porch. Fruits matured in three days. So that's 14 days from culture to spore.

by teonan

Tek 3:

Use Birdseed spawn to inoculate pasteurized straw. Mix well and pack into a clear tray and cover the top with tinfoil (punch a few small holes with a needle for ventilation). For the spawn run temp, around 80-86 deg will provide the fastest growth. Once colonization is complete (this species is FAST-often only 1 week is needed) case the tray with a thin layer of sterile peat/limestone (4-6 parts peat, 1 part limestone). Now the casing shouldn't be too thick-just enough to cover the surface. Recover the tray with tinfoil and allow the casing to become colonized (check it in about 1-2 days). When you see the mycelium peekin' up, remove the tinfoil and place the tray into a humidified grow chamber. Temps should be around 73-75 deg. F. Within one week the trays will EXPLODE with fruits. They will be small but very potent-nice inky blue stains here and there.

What is the best substrate to use for Panaeolus cyanescens?

Cow manure is the best single ingredient substrate for all the Copelandias.
There is nothing better for resistance to contamination, yield, and ability to achieve yield in shallow substrate layers.
Rye grain & bird seed both yield extremely small mature mushrooms.
If you can find cow manure USE IT.

by teonan

There are many formulas that work. Do you have access to cow or horse fields? If not just buy some dehydrated manure from a gardening supply store or your local Home depot or Kmart.
I use:
1 cup manure(From a Field)
1/4 cup rye grass seed (Kmart)
1/4 cup perlite( home depot)
Water content to field capacity. Not to wet not to dry. This quantity depends on the moisture contents of your manure.
There are other formulas around, some even include quantity of water to add.

by teonan

Will they fruit directly from rye grain?

You can fruit them on straight rye grain, but the resulting shrooms will be very small and difficult to harvest and print. Hundreds of very small shrooms. Wall to wall flushes with 100+ shrooms yielding about 1-2 grams dry. Shroom size is 1-3 inch tall with caps under 1/4 inch(usually about 1/8 inch). 1 inch substrate layer in a 8" x 8" brownie pan, cased with peat/perlite at less then 1/4 inch.
You would be better off using the rye grain spawn to inoculate jars of manure based substrates.
THE USE of Manure or manure straw DRASTICALLY increases yield(approx. 7-14 times the yield) and decreases contamination rate, speed to flush, and just about everything else.

by teonan

What determines the size of the Panaeolus mushrooms?

Size of Copelandias are strain dependent first.
Secondly. usually small fruits are associated with excessive humidity(moisture) without the air exchange to compensate for the wetness.

by teonan


How do I proceed after the substrate is colonized?

Colonize substrate completely, wait 24 hours. Case with 1/4 inch or less of casing soil.(I just use bagged peat and bagged perlite or vermiculite and mix them myself.) Bring up to field capacity by lightly misting if necessary. Let it incubate in the dark(covered with a layer of aluminum foil) for 24-48 hours, and place in fruiting chamber. Avoid misting !! Wait till day 5 from casing, and start fanning at least once a day manually. When the first pin forms I usually stop fanning for 24-48 hours until many pins form. Then start fanning at least 1 time a day manually.
I prefer a small tray. I have seen no advantage to using trays deeper then 3 inches with Copelandias. Yields are actually reduced in bulk, relative to efficiency of smaller trays.

by teonan

Do Panaeolus cyanescens also fruit on straw?

Yes, they grow on straw, very well. Without the manure. Only problem is straw contaminates easier then manure based substrates, with Panaeolus. If you can keep it clean till the end of the first flush, you are in for a great flush.

by teonan

Is there a need to add a buffer to the casing mixture?

I have found no becessity for a buffer with Panaeolus.
Straight peat/perlite casing at a layer less then 1/4 inch works absolutely fine for me.
Panaeolus are FAST as hell. After casing, incubate for 24-48 hours at room temp(75-80F) and right into the fruiting chamber they go.
pH is a concern for slower casing colonization and slow pin sets. Also for long term casings.
I wouldn't imagine you would need to buffer with anything other then coarse limestone, if you feel more comfortable with the LIME suggestions around about.
Anything in the same range as cubensis will work FINE.

by teonan

Can they grown successfully using the PF Tek/MMGG method?

Yes, Panaeolus cyanescens (aka Copelandia cyanescens) can be cultivated using the PF tek, but there will need to be some slight adjustments in the substrate. The following modified, dung containing PF tek substrate by BJ works well:
Mix for 10-12 half pints:

5 cups vermiculite
3 cups manure
10 tblspns BRF
1.5 - 1.75 cups water

Fill your canning jars, sterilize for an hour in a pressure cooker and inoculate via the PF tek method. Once your substrate is fully colonized, crumble and case with 50/50+.
Since the manure is already added to your substrate, there is no need to spawn with manure and risk contamination in this step.
Just place your cased substrate into your humidity chamber and watch them grow!

by ambrose & BJ

Do Panaeolus cyanescens need a casing layer?

Yes, they need a thin casing layer. The recipe that works the best for me is:

6 parts peat moss (pick out any small sticks, etc...)
1 part limestone (not dolomitic)
2 parts vermiculite (pre moistened).

I usually put the mix in wide mouth quarts and sterilize for 20 minutes at 15 P.S.I. But, since pan cyan grows so quickly this may not be needed....You decided. The casing doesn't need to be very thick...1/4 inch is plenty. As for the substrate: Pasteurized straw works very well. The depth of the substrate should be 3"-6".

by ambrose


What kind of environment do Panaeolus cyanescens like?

Panaeolus cyanescens likes warm temps. It will do very well under the same environmental parameters as Psilocybe cubensis. The substrate temperature for the spawn run and post casing/pre-pinning phase is 79-84 Fahrenheit. The air temp range for primordia formation and cropping is 75-80. The mycelium is very fast growing, fine at first and then cottony at maturity. I wouldn't say that the mycelium is anymore fussier than other species. Plus, the fast growth reduces the chance for competitors to take hold. Comments taken without permission from Stamets' TMC: "This rapidly growing species fruits readily on pasteurized straw provided a thin layer of casing is applied (1/2 inch). No more than one week passes from the time of casing to the first flush. Although the fruit bodies are small, the flushes are typically abundant. The degree of bluing seems to vary with the strain and substrate."

by ambrose

Is Panaeolus cyanescens and Psilocybe cyanescens the same mushroom?

Panaeolus cyanescens and Psilocybe cyanescens are not the same mushroom. They are not even closely related.
The confusion comes when both species, Panaeolus cyanescens(the subtropical species) and Psilocybe cyanescens(the wood lover) are abbreviated P. cyanescens. This is a common mistake because they have the same species name. The Generic name (or first name) is the important part.
To make it even more confusing, some taxonomists place tropical Panaeolus into Copelandia. So Panaeolus cyanescens and Copelandia cyanescens are the same while Psilocybe cyanescens is something else entirely.

Psilocybe cyanescens is actually a sister species to Psilocybe azurescens and was previously considered to only be a larger form of Psilocybe cyanescens. Since they are so closely related, they share the same growth parameters and substrate preferences. They even grow in the same types of habitat. So any tips on how to grow one should be totally transferable to the other.

by Workman


How do I clone a Panaeolus cyanescens mushroom?

Pan. cyanescens is a small mushroom. It grows very tall, but cap size is small.
The stems range in size up to 120 mm tall, and the caps are typically less then 25 mm in diameter.
When thinking Pan. cyanescens, or cambodginiensis, think small. Don't even try to compare sizes with cubensis. They never get that big.

When cloning shrooms, you want to take a piece of the shroom, not the whole thing. It is best with the fragile small Pan.'s to cut into the thin stem and take only a portion of cut stem interior, or cut a small section of the stem, if you have trouble getting inside. The new growth will occur at the cut ends in the latter scenario, or from the entire exposed inner tissue. Inner tissue is always better, then outer tissue. It's morphology is suited towards growth, more so then the exterior tissue. It's also cleaner.
When cloning, you never want to have the entire cap present. Spores could be present, and then you don't have a clone.

by teonan

What distinguishes Panaeolus cyanescens, Panaeolus tropicalis and Panaeolus cambodginiensis
both microscopically and macroscopically?

Panaeolus cyanescens and cambodginiensis are 4 spored, the former occasionally 2 spored. Panaeolus tropicalis is 2 spored. Psilocybe cubensis itself is sometimes 2, or 3 spored versus the normal 4 spored.
Psilocybe cubensis, Pan. cyanescens, and Pan. cambodginiensis should all have the same breeding system. Heterolthallic.
Pan. tropicalis is probably different, because of the 2 spored basidia. Probably some type of homothallic breeding strategy.
Homothallic systems are easier to obtain fruits from, one type just requires a period of time to pass before the dikaryotic colony emerges, the other type it is germinated dikaryotic. Some strains will just be more vigorous then others!!!!
In the case of the other 4 spored pans. cyans, and cambodginiensis, the system will either be identical too cubensis, or it will be unifactorial, in which case it should be far easier to obtain a fruiting strain, not more difficult.
Notice the size difference. The cambodginiensis are much shorter shrooms, with maximum cap size of 25 mm. The cyanescens reach cap sizes well above that, and heights well above the heights obtained by these "cambodginiensis". Tropicalis get the tallest, but have the smallest cap size.
Without looking at spore size, it will be highly difficult to separate these three species. All share very similar appearance. I did notice these "cambodginiensis" started off at the button stage, EXTREMELY DARKER BROWN than the tropicalis, and the cyanescens I have grown.
On agar there are vast differences in appearance between each species, and even within the cyanescens complex, their are vast differences in color and texture of the different geographical spore races. The Hawaiian cyanescens forms little sclerotia on the agar, and is faster growing then the Tai, and the cambodian. The tai actually has a similar growth pattern to the cambodginiensis on agar. Definite zones of fluctuating growth, due to mild temperature changes. It is more rhizomorphic then the cambodian, and hawaiian cyanescens. On AGAR.
Appearance and size are based on substrate composition, and environmental parameters + genetics. Genetics determine the range of possibilities, but are activated by the environmental parameters.
I think as Stametes States, the only way to know for sure is by measuring the spore size. But I think when growing on the same substrate in the same environmental parameters, SIZE RANGE of the mature mushrooms is very telling. I also think that what the Differentiated Button Mushroom looks like, before water expansion, is also very telling.
What does the mushroom look like when it first appears as a mushroom? Tropicalis and cyanescens look very light colored compared to the cambodginiensis. This is the chocolate, that Stamets refers too.
Personally, I don't think there is much difference between all three of these species. I actually prefer the cyanescens. It is the easiest to print, it is the easiest to grow, it is the fastest to pin, and it gets the largest out of the three. All three look very similar to me when grown indoors. Outdoors, they all look different from the indoor grown. They all get larger, consistently.
I don't think I would compare the outdoor cambodginiensis picture in Stamets book, to an indoor cambodginiensis. I have yet to grow a cyanescens that looks like the picture in the book, or a tropicalis for that matter.

All of the Panaeolus/Copelandias in circulation fall within the range of Panaeolus cyanescens. The cambodginiensis I looked at both macroscopically and microscopically, circulating in the community, had microscopic sizes consistent with cyanescens. The "tropicalis" floating around, a wild one and two domesticated ones, all had sizes consistent with cyanescens as well.
I found no strains in circulation that could be seperated from Copelandia cyanescens based on all the macroscopic and microscopic comparisons.

by teonan

What should I look for when selecting mycelium for propagation?

I think the hardest part of selecting from a multi spore germination of Panaeolus species, is the fact that it all looks similar. Unlike cubensis, where once sectors show, the good ones tend to be very RHIZOMORPHIC. Panaeolus is more linear, and heavily branched, even cottony appearing when many strains are growing overlapped. Once several isolations are done from the multi spore, it's true appearance is easily recognized, but it does take a few transfers. Cubensis you can spot at the edge of the multi spore germination petri, and can isolate pure in one transfer if you are very careful. The Pan. cyans and cambodginiensis might take a few more transfers before you are left with a single strain.

The 2 spored tropicalis , if it is homothallic, the majority or all of the spores germinating will either be DIKARYOTIC already, or will become dikaryotic after a period of time remaining as monkaryotic. This later homothallic type could be a little troublesome. But the majority of strains with this type of breeding system will FRUIT, they just do so at varying degrees. Some will not.

As weird as it seems, Cubensis shares with the majority of 4 spored fungus, the hardest type of breeding system for isolation of fruiting colonies. It just happens to have one of the easiest appearances for isolation. It is extremely RHIZOMORPHIC, it is the NAME SAKE MUSHROOM for the term RHIZOMORPHIC.

WHEN EVERYTHING ON THE PLATE LOOKS ALIKE, IT IS EASIER TO MAKE BAD CHOICES.

I have had no trouble isolating fruiting strains of any of the Psilocybin mushrooms I had the ability to test for fruitability. The hardest looking stuff for isolation I have seen yet was the P. semilanceata and the P. samuiensis, but the latter readily pins on agar, so It is easy to find the fruiters. The semilanceata looks like a complete guessing game on agar, but I can't even try too fruit it down here anyway.

I had absolutely no trouble isolating a Fruiter from the each Panaeolus species, from multi spore germinations on agar.

As usually though, it is easiest to go spore to substrate to fruit to clone!!!! Then you don't have to play the guessing game. I just love to see uniformity appear out of chaos, for each and every one of these fungus. Multispores on agar are amazing to watch.

by teonan

Should I shake the jars colonizing with Panaeolus cyanescens?

I do not shake the jars during colonization, only to break up the block to lay out in trays.
Exceptions: When a jar of substrate has uneven moisture distribution, and sections of substrate are too dry to be colonized, I shake these jars, and have only had a couple stall out, usually they rebound quickly and completely colonize.
Most of the trouble with shaking occurs with multispore syringe inoculations into a jar of substrate. When you do this there is more then ONE strain or sub strain growing in the jar. When you shake, these separate strains are being mixed together, and not all of them will grow together as one. If you place spores on a petri plate, you will see there are distinct sectors growing out from the multi spore inoculation. Most of them do not interact, and actually show dieback when they come together. There is a zone of no or little growth separating each Strain or sub strain. Imagine having five or six different strains that only rarely undergo anastamosis or fusion, and continue growing. They will stall out if they are mixed together in shaking. This problem does not occur with a single strain growing throughout the entire substrate.
Different species of mushrooms, and even different Spore races, strains, and sub strains all have different tolerances to mixing. But most of them, by themselves in a substrate can be broken up, and will fuse back together upon rebounding from the initial shock of shaking. It actually speeds up the process.
This is just one more reason to start from petri dish, and obtain pure cultures. It is always better to inoculate a substrate with a single isolated pure, clean strain, then with spores.
People will argue this all the time, but this is a prime example of why it is better. Cubensis Strains or "sub strains" have a higher tolerance for mixing. Even on a petri dish you can see it. When you multi spore cubensis onto a dish, several strains or sub strains grow out in sectors, but where the sectors bump into each other, there is a high incidence of interaction between the two strains. Some combine to form a new sector that emerges, others combine and one seems to take over and be more vigorous incorporating the other into it's own network. Others run into each other and maintain there distinctive separateness. But this does not make the mycelium stronger or weaker. It's just a result of incompatibility factors between Strains or sub strains arising from a single print or Spore race.
This incompatibility is greater from spore race to spore race in cubensis, but it is not complete. There are always a couple strains that can fuse, and undergo anastamosis to form either a single colony, or create a new hybrid colony.
Coplelandia or Pan. cyans just has a greater incompatibility mechanism between Strains or sub strains. AKA there is far less interaction between distinct sectors on a petri plate, and hence less interaction within a multi spore. It is better to just let the jars sit, and the most aggressive strain or strains will dominate there sections of the substrate. Upon complete colonization, just break up the substrate as little as possible and lay it out in trays. There should be enough quantity of each successful strain to go to fruit. Maybe even only one strain will remain.
So to clarify, don't shake syringe inoculated substrate from panaeolus species, it may work, but it may not. Just inoculate and wait. It will just take longer.
If a pure strain is used as the inoculate, shaking tends not to stall out the colony, but increase its colonization speed.

by teonan

How fast do Panaeolus cyanescens grow?

I found the Panaeolus cyanescens to be very fast compared to P. cubensis. I germinate spores on agar and transfer to Manure:rye seed:perlite in quart jars. These run through in a max of 14 days, but usually in under 10 days. Once laid out in tray and cased with a very thin layer of Peat:perlite, the pin in about 7 days, and mature by the 13 day max. Everything is fast. I also found it almost impossible to get a bad Mating from the spores, every wedge I transfer results in a fruiting strain. Overall, I would say they are Easy, and that is not an overstatement. All of the prints I've made from this manure based substrate are dark, and I always use paper for prints that I use myself. I would think that it was probably the condition of the print and the making of syringe, that was the problem, but then you said your jars stalled out. That sounds like a contaminant problem or a substrate problem. The Cop. cyans, are weak looking, but they are aggressive colonizers. If contamination is present, they will fall victim to it, but if none is present, there should be no reason for stalling, other than substrate problems, i.e moisture content, etc...
Try and avoid so many steps, transfers. I use mycelium from a petri dish to inoculate the manure based substrate directly, then lay out and case in trays. Since you are starting with a syringe, try inoculating rye grain, and use this to inoculate manure based substrate. Do you have a pressure cooker?
Too many steps opens up the possibilities of something going wrong. Syringe to rye grain to manure based substrate.
I would avoid straw, it just increases the chance of failure.

by teonan

I maybe use, in comparison to other people, high rates of spawn, but I also grow in a smaller scale...
I use about 0.5 to 1 L of rye spawn for 2 to 3 L of end substrate. This means I use about 25 % vol of the end moist substrate. I'm sorry that I don't have the density for moist straw/hay.
The colonizing velocity of Pan cyan I've measured lies between 0.2 to 0.4 L/d (Liters of end substrate per day), when it is incubated at 27 C. The velocity for Psi cub is about the same at 28 C. The colonizing velocity should not depend on the volume you are colonizing, if you use constant relative amounts of spawn. But I don't have concise data on that.
One more thing to this velocities: I select the cultures, i.e. no multi spore inoculation but a pure agar culture. There is a big difference in colonizing velocities, because using agar you don't have an offset as a consequence of the time the spores would need to germinate.

by unknown

What agar formulation is best used with Panaeolus cyanescens?

I use MEA for all species! Supplement with yeast and peptone, optional.
The cop. cyans look more cottony then the cubensis, don't look for Rhizomorphs, just transfer clean sectors. Like I said, they all have fruited well for me.
Good Luck
I should have some more prints in about a week, if you want to wait, I can send you a few.

by teonan

I use PDYA but also oatmeal agar. Check What are some good agar media recipes?

by Anno

Can they be also cultivated on hay(as opposed to straw)?

I've cultivated Pan cyan on hay alone. It worked good, I got about 2.5 flushes.
They didn't want to fruit directly on cased rye, so I pasteurized hay, spawned,
incubated, and only 1 week after I cased I had a nice amount of Pan cyan. It should
also work with straw. Actually I'm going to grow some on straw next week. I'm right now
incubating the spawn.
You really need only a very thin casing layer...

I've seen that Pan cyan is very sensible to high humidity, much more than Psi cub.
I've had some containers in which the fruits didn't want to develop normally. The
fruits were very thin and didn't sporulate. So watch the humidity...

by Elektrolurch

Can I prepare a tea with Panaeolus cyanescens mushrooms?

It works very well. I find eating to be inconsistent. Your body has to digest the shrooms to release the goodies, so it takes longer to get really intense, and usually you have to do more to get to the same place. Some of the potency is lost in drying, and some is lost to the roughage that you through out after straining. But you are getting all of the goodies at once, so these losses are negligible. The best trips I ever have are off Teas, without consuming the roughage. The strongest trip I ever had was on Fresh wild cubensis simmering in water on the stove for an hour. One night in Gainseville, five of us did about a hundred medium to large cubensis into five cups of water. Two guys who drank too much through-up for about 30 minutes ten minutes into it. The rest of us who drank the half cup I recommended, held it all down. It was so fucking intense. I have never gotten back to that place. It was the most visual trip I ever had. I was tripping so hard, I could not see where one object ended and the other started. Everything melted into a giant jigsaw puzzle, that was moving, waving, and shooting lines out everywhere. It felt like every cell of my body was in ecstasy. Telepathy between people, trees, animals. You couldn't talk for hours, you didn't have too. I knew exactly what everyone and everything was perceiving. It was the closest I have ever come to COMMUNION.
Also check the Best Possible Mushroom Tea Recipe™

by teonan
























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